John Armstrong on Black Op Radio: the reported later statements of Victoria Adams (The Girl on the Stairs) are probably a hoax.

[Micah Mileto]

John Armstrong did not agree with the notion that the transcripts of Victoria Adams' statements were an outright forgery. https://blackopradio.com/archives2021.html show #1030, 2/18/2021

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Micah, can you please mark where Armstrong says what you say he did.

[Micah Mileto]

30 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Micah, can you please mark where Armstrong says what you say he did.

It's practically the entire show, it starts at about 7 minutes in and continues from there. But, Armstrong points out that there is still evidence against the Oswald theory in these statements even if we discount all of the information presented by Barry Ernest.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Micah Mileto

[Pat Speer]

I guess I agree with Armstrong then. When I went back and looked at this a few years back, it became quite clear that Adams and Styles raced downstairs and came across Shelley and Lovelady entering from the west side. 

Her saying her testimony was changed was, in my opinion, a defense mechanism begun as a reaction to the actions of Ball and Belin, who told her Shelley and Lovelady failed to return for 5 minutes or so after the shooting. This was a lie. 

I firmly believe, moreover, that Ball and Belin knew this was a lie. They never asked Shelley and Lovelady if they saw Truly and Baker when they (S and L) came back in through the west side. And this even though Baker swore he saw two white men at the back of the building when he was standing by the elevators. 

When you read through all the statements it's clear these two were S and L. 

[John Butler]

There were a number of things the WC lawyers didn't like.  They kept part of her WC testimony classified as Top Secret.  This lasted until 1967 when the following was de-classifed.  It might be interesting to review:

Adams says the shooting, 3 shots, took place in front of the TSBD.  Her view of the shooting was obscured by trees.  She also said the shooting came from the right and not from above on the 6th floor.  This is in the record and why people missed or dismissed this shooting statement is beyond me.

Then there is the testimony about seeing Bill Shelley and Bill (Lovelady) before the exited the building for the parking lot.  This was also stated in a earlier statement in February. 

Harvey and Lee site:

“On February 17, 1964 Adams told Dallas Police detective Jim Leavelle that she saw Bill Shelley and an employee named Billy (Lovelady) when she arrived on the first floor, one minute after the shooting. Six weeks later, on April 7, Adams said exactly that same thing to the WC. She told WC attorney David Belin that Shelley and Lovelady were "slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator."

 Seeing Shelley and Lovelady must have been an important piece of information to hide it by classifying this statement as Top Secret.  I also thing that the info on where the shooting took place is relevant.  If my memory is right the other witnesses with Vickie said similar things.

Vickie Adams statements on the murder of President Kennedy:

11-24-63-  Vickie Adams- FBI statement

2-17-64-  Vickie Adams- Jim Leavelle statement

3-23-64-  Vickie Adams- FBI statement

4-7-64-  Warren Commission testimony

Her March 23, 1964 statement is fairly hard to find.  I found this interesting doc at Mary Ferrell.  I don't think it is a fraud, but it is not an original doc:

The wording is the same as CE No. 1381.  I originally thought something was up, but:

 

  

Edited February 20, 2021 by John Butler

[Sandy Larsen]

 

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Micah, can you please mark where Armstrong says what you say he did.

 

Jim,

Armstrong talks about Victoria Adams' late claim that she did NOT encounter Shelley and Lovelady in theTSBD between 38:00 to 45:00. He calls this reversal a hoax, which is a serious charge against Barry Ernest. Armstrong claims that Adams indeed did see Shelley and Lovelady upon exiting the flight of steps on the first floor.

I don't buy it. We have a number of films and photographs showing Billy Lovelady standing on one of the upper TSBD steps, on the western half of the steps. We can see him move around a bit, but he stays in the same general area. We last see him before the shots in Altgens 6, and about 30 seconds after the shots in Darnell, where he is seen still on the TSBD steps, at this time talking to Gloria Calvery. In order for him to have his encounter with Victoria Adams would have required him to break into a sprint the moment he disappears from the final camera recording (Darnell) and run to the place where Adams said she saw him and Shelley near he rear of the building.

John Armstrong agrees with a number of us who have studied the multiple testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady and concluded that they changed their stories. Where his thinking differs from most of ours is that he believes that Shelley and Lovelady were co-conspirators of the assassination plot. Most of us believe only that Shelley and Lovelady were used to support the fabricated 2nd floor encounter between Officer Baker and Oswald.

 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Sandy Larsen

[Micah Mileto]

Page 5 of the Warren report states "The transcripts of this testimony, prepared by qualified court reporters, were reviewed by members of the Commission staff and, in most instances, by the witness concerned. Editing of the transcript prior to printing in these volumes was confined to correction of stenographic errors and punctuation, and minor changes designed to improve the clarity and accuracy of the testimony. In the few cases indicated, brief deletions have been made of material which might be considered in poor taste and is clearly irrelevant to any facet of the Commission's investigation. All the original transcripts prepared by the court reporters, of course, have been preserved and will be available for inspection under the same rules and regulations which will apply to all records of this Commission". Yet, ALL transcripts for April 7, 1964 are missing without explanation (Ernest, The Girl on the Stairs, 2013, Notes). This includes the transcripts from the testimonies of William Shelly, Billy Lovelady, Victoria Adams, Danny Arce, Joe Molina, Earle Brown, Danny Garcia Arce, Geneva Hine, Doris Burns, Barbara Rowland, J. B. Hicks, W. E. Barnes, James R. Leavelle, Edward Vobel, Charles Steele, Charles Murret, Edward Pic, Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, Mrs. Myrtle Evans, Mrs. Viola Peterman, Julian Evans, and Carlos Bringuier.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Micah Mileto

[Micah Mileto]

1 hour ago, Micah Mileto said:

 

delete

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Micah Mileto

[James DiEugenio]

Barry Ernest replies:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/barry-ernest-replies-to-john-armstrong-re-victoria-adams

[Andrej Stancak]

Well, John Armstrong's interpretation of the immediate aftermath of the shooting is a very sad story. Rather, it is a mad story. It has the sole purpose of making Armstrong's escape plan working. To make his nonsensical escape plan working, Lovelady (!) needed to be  conspirator, Shelley too, the electric power needed to be shut off right before arrival of the motorcade, both men needed to make sure to switch on the power again so that the passenger lift can be used to transport two shooters from the sixth floor to the 1st floor, to this end the wooden floor needed to be dismantled and restored again so that nobody sees any manipulation with the floor, and of course, book boxes needed to be placed over the place where the wooden floor was disturbed, and off they go using a ladder to enter the lift through the roof of the said lift parked on the 4th floor. Therefore, Vicky Adams lied (or just did not remember?) that she had not seen Lovelady and Shelley who just happened to be there in the back of the first floor to fiddle with the electric switch box. These two men lied also when they said that they have walked to the island in front of the building and returned to the building after several minutes via the western entrance. Yes, they lied because they were CIA and helped the assassins to escape the building. 

This hurts.

Anyway, this is what Shelley told the Warren Commission:

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together.
Mr. BALL - And then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't think anything about it.
Mr. BALL - What did it sound like to you?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud.
Mr. BALL - What happened; what did you do then?
Mr. SHELLEY - I didn't do anything for a minute.

Yes, Shelley did not do anything for about a minute. He was still at the centre of the top landing for tens of seconds, the same spot where he can be seen in Altgens6, Wiegman and Darnell. Shelley (and Lovelady) heard Gloria Calvary telling people on steps about the impact of shots and then he and Lovelady left the doorway to go to the island where they were stopped by Police. Both men saw Truly and Baker entering the building (*) when they were already safely on that island. The light in the first floor vestibule behind the glass door was shining brightly (seen in the Darnell), telling everyone that there was no power outage in the building. 

I am so glad that I do not have to lie - do not need to make any theory working, I just want to test if some possibilities could be true.

(*) Credit to Sandy Larsen for pointing to the direction of Officer Baker's run in Couch/Darnell a few years ago. Lovelady's and Shelley's testimonies clearly exclude the possibility that Baker ran straight into the building. He spent a period of time (20 seconds?) with first running to a location around the east corner of the building, and only then he returned to enter the building. Should Baker run straight into the building, he would be in the second floor lunchroom too soon, much earlier than Oswald if Oswald had to descend from the sixth floor (which he did not).

Edited March 24, 2021 by Andrej Stancak

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Well, John Armstrong's interpretation of the immediate aftermath of the shooting is a very sad story. Rather, it is a mad story. It has the sole purpose of making Armstrong's escape plan working. To make his nonsensical escape plan working, Lovelady (!) needed to be  conspirator, Shelley too, the electric power needed to be shut off right before arrival of the motorcade, both men needed to make sure to switch on the power again so that the passenger lift can be used to transport two shooters from the sixth floor to the 1st floor, to this end the wooden floor needed to be dismantled and restored again so that nobody sees any manipulation with the floor, and of course, book boxes needed to be placed over the place where the wooden floor was disturbed, and off they go using a ladder to enter the lift through the roof of the said lift parked on the 5th floor.

Well said, Andrej. But are we really surprised Armstrong is stretching himself into impossible shapes here, considering the preposterous logic underpinning his "Harvey and Lee" theory?

[John Butler]

4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Therefore, Vicky Adams lied (or just did not remember?) that she had not seen Lovelady and Shelley who just happened to be there in the back of the first floor to fiddle with the electric switch box.

Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles came down the steps from the fourth floor to the 1st floor.  How long did that take?  About 1 minute?  Or, was it longer due to taking some time to make up their mind to do so?  We don't know.  Oswald is supposed to have made his journey from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor in 90 seconds.  4 floors versus 4 floors says the ladies made it in a minute?  Not so!  That's just illogical.  Their trip could have been slightly longer such as 90 seconds (It would match Oswald's(?) speed).  Maybe by 12:37:30 or possibly 12:38 (90 seconds).  If so Oswald is already on the 2nd floor (90 seconds or 12:37:30)?  

This is a crucial question. How long did it really take gives one an idea on other matters such as the whereabouts of Shelley and Lovelady.  If it took them two minutes then Lovelady and Shelley had enough time to come inside after seeing Truly and Baker go into the building. Enough time to walk to the north face of the building and be by the elevators.  Films show Baker arriving at the TSBD about 15 seconds after the shooting.  He and Truly run into the building.  Wouldn't Shelley (Truly's deputy administrator and his sidekick, Lovelady, go into the building to see what was making Baker and Truly go into the building?  This seems more reasonable then wandering around the parking lot for 5 or 10 minutes.

The TSBD is 100 feet square.  From the front door (south door) to the back door (north door) would it take to walk 100 feet?  At a walk or run?  Not long.  They had a 90 seconds or 2 minutes to do that.  I think they followed Baker and Truly into the building.

Vicky Adams didn't lie about seeing Shelley and Lovelady on the 1st floor as they came down the steps onto the first floor.  I always like to take what a witness first said as the more reliable statements then what they said later on be that days or years.  Vickie Adams made 4 statements on what she saw:

Vickie Adams statements on the murder of President Kennedy:

11-24-63-  Vickie Adams- FBI statement

2-17-64-  Vickie Adams- Jim Leavelle statement

3-23-64-  Vickie Adams- FBI statement

4-7-64-  Warren Commission testimony

Go back to my earlier post and you will see the Top Secret section of her WC testimony that states she saw Lovelady and Shelley by the elevators.  There are two things that needed to be kept Top Secret:  1) Shelley and Lovelady were by the elevators when they came down the steps.  2.)  She heard shooting when the p. limo was out of sight under trees below her window.  This is the shooting occurred below her window under the trees and not down in front of the Grassy Knoll.  She did say she heard shots from the west in direction of the Grassy Knoll.

On 2/20/2021 at 1:32 PM, John Butler said:

This is in the record and why people missed or dismissed this shooting statement is beyond me.

I said this earlier and still can't believe that people will simply dismiss this.  Could it be that folks are so blinded (like a mule with blinders) by their own theories that they can't see or dismiss what she said? 

Edited March 24, 2021 by John Butler

[Andrej Stancak]

John:

the point is that Vicky Adams did not say she has seen Lovelady and Shelley when she and Sandra Styles went down the stairs and reached the first floor. These girls did not see Marrion Baker and Roy Truly either. Barry Ernest investigated this conundrum until he solved it. Vicky Adams confirmed to Barry Ernest repeatedly she did not see Shelley and Lovelady while on their way out. The alleged encounter between Adams&Styles and Shelley&Lovelady got into the Warren Report by mistake. Vicky Adams's corrected testimony for the Warren Commission never got into the published Hearings, she did not authorise the published version.

Adams and Styles left the building within 60 seconds or even slightly earlier (my calculations). The point is that Mrs. Garner, Adams's and Styles's supervisor, confirmed that they left before Truly and Baker climbed up the stairs and reached the fourth floor. Since the two parties (Adams & Styles and Baker & Truly) did not see each other and Adams & Styles left before Garner saw Truly & Baker, the only possibility is that the two girls left the building early on and therefore missed Truly and Baker. There is no chance that Lovelady and Shelley could be in the back of the first floor within one minute without being seen by Truly and Baker who came to the back of the first floor about 70 seconds after the last shot and just missed Adams and Styles.Moreover, both Lovelady and Shelley confirmed that they had seen Truly and Baker entering the building while they (Lovelady and Shelley) were about 15-20 meters away from the front entrance on the small concrete island there. 

 

[John Butler]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:56 AM, Pat Speer said:

I firmly believe, moreover, that Ball and Belin knew this was a lie. They never asked Shelley and Lovelady if they saw Truly and Baker when they (S and L) came back in through the west side. And this even though Baker swore he saw two white men at the back of the building when he was standing by the elevators. 

This more or less reflects what I am saying about Shelley and Lovelady following Baker and Truly into the building.  It is easier and with less time than going out and around the TSBD and entering the north door of the building.  Whatever is the real event they had 90 seconds to 2 minutes to do that.  Actually not, if Baker said he saw two white men standing by the elevator (assumed to be Shelley and Lovelady).  

How long did Baker and Truly stand by the elevators before they decided to take the steps.  The two white men had to be there at the same time as Baker and Truly.  They went up the steps before Vickie and Sandra came down or did they?  Adams and Styles didn't see Baker and Truly, but saw Shelley and Lovelady.   This is giving me a headache.  Did Adams and Styles come down the steps before Baker and Truly went up the steps.  Well, no.   Vickie would have said she saw Roy Truly one of the big bosses at the TSBD.  So, they came down after Baker and Truly went up the steps?  Well, no, maybe?  If Adams and Styles went directly across the TSBD (100 feet they would have been on the steps before Baker and Truly and would have seen the unknown man at about the 3rd or 4th floor) after the shooting they should have heard or seen Baker and Truly, or met them on the steps.  Recall, Baker takes about 15 seconds to get to the TSBD door then he and Truly are at the back elevators for a few seconds before deciding to go upstairs.  By this time, Adams and Styles should be on the stairs. 

It is my believe that Baker and Truly made up the story of the second floor breakroom encounter.  The real event was meeting the unknown individual at the 3rd or 4th floor.  And, by the way why did Adams and Styles not see the fellow if he was on the 4th floor?  Or, the 3rd floor steps. 

[John Butler]

17 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Adams and Styles left the building within 60 seconds or even slightly earlier (my calculations).

They were speed demons.  Bold and capable step runners.  And, the Oswald character was not.  He took 90 seconds to traverse 4 floors.  And, Adams and Styles took 60 seconds to traverse 4 floors and be out of the building?  Doesn't seem reasonable.