How to debunk the George Hickey theory?

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

just straightening from the turn” means the end of the turn. However, I do take anything the SS agents say with a "grain of salt" given Hickey's and Roberts' dubiously authored memos.

All those in governmental authority that day should be looked at carefully as to what they said.  But, I took the witness statement for what they said to be correct as a court would unless otherwise proved different.  

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

Moorman’s shadow in the Altgens 6 shows that she was definitely in the street in that pict. In some interviews she does say she stepped back up on the curb. In video interviews showing her in Dealey Plaza, she seems to be standing in roughly that same place as in the Z-film, although a Jean Hill drawing does seem to put them closer to the TSBD.

Jean Hill fought Arlen Specter to have that information about where she was at come out.  Specter later classified his drawing (Hill Exhibit No 5) of where Jean said she and Mary were as Top Secret, and it was hidden from the public for many years.

Because of this I take her statement to be true.  Later on, she says basically what Mary Moorman always said.  This contradicts her Warren Commission testimony.  Jean changed her testimony several times I believe.  

I get in trouble all the time for saying Jean Hill's statement of where she was at is true.    

[John Butler]

On 12/1/2021 at 9:51 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

Given that Butler and I agree on so many aspects of the case, I don't quite understand why he seems so resistant to my scenario? Photo alteration, film alteration, early first head shot, later AR-15 accidental shot. This scenario accounts for not only all the anomalies Butler describes, but also the gun smoke witnesses, the 6.0 mm entrance, etc. etc. described above.

I'm not at this point in as much disagreement as prior.  I have read through most of your comments and agree with a lot of what you are saying.  Your interpretation of events in Dealey Plaza is superior to most.  But, there are things open to argument and a different interpretation.  Altgens 6 is an example.

Edited December 2, 2021 by John Butler

[John Butler]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:28 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

44.   James Worrell- Warren Commission- 3-10-64- But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.  This was still in front of the TSBD.  The TSBD is 100 feet wide, a square building.

Earlier on I think you have confused Alan Smith with James Worrell.  He was the person leaning against the building directly under the Sniper's Nest.  However, there is no visual evidence for Worrell or Smith being in that location.

[John Butler]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:28 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

45.   Jeanette E. Hooker- 1-8-64- estimated that the presidential limousine was almost to the R L Thornton sign when she heard 3 shots.  Almost to the R L Thornton sign means in front of the SW corner of the TSBD.

I think she missed some of the shots due to inattention blindness and/or misinterpretation.

I think her testimony was changed or at least what she said coerced by the FBI.  Perhaps, she willing testified to something different than the other two ladies that were with her said.  They couldn't have a third lady saying shooting occurred on Main Street.

[John Butler]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:28 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

46.    Mary Ann Mitchell- FBI report January 18, 1964, WC deposition April 1, 1964.said she and her companion heard a shot as the presidential car passed the curb in front of the TSBD.

 

Vague. As you point out, TSBD is 100 feet wide. She should have been asked to mark picts showing where she was standing, and limo/president’s position/s at the time of shots. Like many witnesses, she was not.

 

47.   T. E. Moore- FBI report 1-10-64- said when the president reached the R L Thornton sign he heard the first of 3 shots fired.

Remember, Mary Moorman said she heard the first shot (that which is usually seen as the Z 313 shot) when she was taking or had just taken her Polaroid.  I think shots were fired in groups of three and that is my best guess from what I have read in witness statement.  These 3 shot groups run from the intersection of Main and Houston all the way down to the Grassy Knoll.  That's my best guess which I will not strictly defend.  It could have happened in a different manner.

[John Butler]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:35 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

51.   Curtis Freeman Bishop- 3-17-64 Warren Commission- He was standing on the Triple Underpass as the presidential limousine came into view started down Elm and past the TSBD he heard 3 shots.

 

Vague, but note “started” down Elm.

I have a problem with the Railroad Men on the bridge.  Based on other films and photos they were not as we see in Altgens 7 above Elm Street.  They were off to the side above the grass leading up to the bridges north side.  They were kept there by Officer Foster.  I am not doubting what they say except for those who say they were on the bridge when they state whatever they are saying.

[John Butler]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:35 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

58.    Howard Brennan- Dallas Sheriff’s Office 1-22-63, DPD Line Up 11-2263, FBI Reports 11-22-63, 12-17-63, and 1-7-64, and Warren Commission 3-24-64. Brennan said many contradictory things. He is often seen as a great xxxx. He was a xxxx.  I think he was forced to lie by the FBI and not tell his true story.  How far was Brennan from the p. limo when he heard shots?  If you cut through several testimonies the distance is not far, a short distance he eventually said.  This means that he heard shooting in front of the TSBD.

I would hesitate to call Brennan a “xxxx,” especially without providing evidence. However, you could describe how his story has changed over time, or how it differs from accounts of others, pointing out the inconsistencies. I do agree that at least part of the shooting occurred when the limo was in front of the TSBD—the “turn” shot & Altgens 6.

I consider Howard Brennan to not be telling the truth when he changed the distance he was from the p limo several times.  Actually, he was quite close, but tried to distance himself as much as he could to please the authorities, mainly the FBI.

[John Butler]

21 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

65.   Patricia Ann Lawerence- FBI Report- 11 25 63- When the President's motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Miss LAWRENCE said she was standing with LUCY WHITAKER in the front row of people on Elm Street at Houston. When the motorcade passed she stated she was looking at Mrs. KENNEDY who was looking to the other side of the car. The President was looking in her direction and she had waved. She heard the shot fired as the president was waving.  

 

The President wasn’t “waving.” He was going into decorticate posture.

The head wound from the front removed a great deal of the President's brain.  Particularly, in the cerebellum and rear of the skulll near the spinal cord.  He was effectively dead when shot there.  

I usually catch a lot of flack for this.  I believe there were several ambush teams directed to fire 3 shots along the route.  I believe Kennedy was shot early on and because of his back brace he did not appear to be decisively shot and killed.  He was still upright and in times waving to the crowd.  I believe his forehead wound as described by Alan Smith to be of low caliber which simply confused the president mentally.  He couldn't figure out what was going on but knew he must wave to the crowd and smile.  And, that image contradicts the whole thing that I have just said for folks.  I get these notions by watching the AMIPA film frame by frame.

This waving was before the head shot described by the Parkland doctors.   

[John Butler]

21 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

69.     Ruth Nelson- FBI Report 3 23 64- Ruth said she did not see the p. limo when she heard shots.  She was watching the motorcade, but could not see the President.  She was standing in the same place as Yola Hopson who said she could not see the President when she heard shots due to the p. limo being obscured by trees in front of the TBSD.   

 

Too vague. Where were Nelson & Hopson? They "couldn't see anything" in any case.

They were on the fourth floor of the TSBD.  I believe they were one room, a store room, east from where Dorothy Garner, Vickie Adams, etc were.  The trees also blocked their view.

[John Butler]

21 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

75.   Marie Muchmore- FBI 12 4 63- was standing on the corner of Houston when the motorcade passed by she heard the first shot.

 

Too vague. What part of the “motorcade”? Note her film showing Warren Taylor’s door in the VP follow-up car door opening, however. 

There is film on Main Street showing that door open.

[John Butler]

21 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

The back of the head blow-out is explained by the earlier forehead shot from the TSBD as noted in Parts 6 & 7 in my documentary. There was NO "front" of the head blow-out, which was created to assist the fiction that all the shots came from behind. However, this first forehead shot (creating the back of the head blow-out) did come from the TSBD. It was covered up to hide initial SS inaction, and to try to make the AR-15 shot fit the math fiction of "three" shots. Three shots fired from the TSBD, but additional shots fired by the SS. 

I would say a shot came from the direction of the TSBD.  It could have come from the Dal-Tex or further up the street where there was construction work going on there.

Toni Glover may have said it best:

20.     Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Only 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded.

[John Butler]

On 12/1/2021 at 9:51 AM, Denise Hazelwood said:

Before going farther, I want to compliment John Butler on his compilation of 110 witness statements. A great many of the witnesses describe "the turn" onto Elm Street as the presidential limo's location for the first shot. Others do not, seeming to place its position in Altgens 6 as the "first" shot, although Kennedy is clearly already in distress by that point, in the "throat grab" position with Jackie's hands on his arm.

Having some idea of how photos are altered, one could say this throat shot was done on Main Street by Altgens photographing it there and then later part of that scene containing the vehicle was added to film taken on Elm Street.  All the films of the p limo turning from Main Street on to Houston Street are altered by distortion, frames missing, splices, and in some humans blocking the view.

That is about as relevant as saying Kennedy was shot in the throat behind the Stemmons sign or just before.  The art of alteration in those days is amazing if done correctly.  Altgens 6 is not done correctly.  There are mistakes visible not only in the doorway of the TSBD, but in other parts of the film.

I have a problem with how many times Kennedy was shot in the head.  There was a post sometime back that when you counted everyone's ideas then Kennedy had been shot in the head more than 5 times.

Here's what I think:

1.  There was a forehead wound.  This was not in the temple area, but near the forehead.  This is evident in an autopsy photo where a flap of skin triangular in nature exposes the wound.

2.  A second wound was in the temple area coming out at the occipital/parietal area at the back of the skull.  This was the tangential wound of Dr. Kemp Clark and the wound seen by 40 or so Parkland people. I credit this as being a luck shot.

3.  There may have been a 3rd wound to the head done after the fact to have a wound from the rear.  

[Denise Hazelwood]

Butler's witnesses #81-90. My responses again in Italics.

81.   Jeanette Hooker- FBI Report 1 10 64- Jeanette Hooker said she heard 3 shots when the p. limo was almost to the R. L. Thornton sign. Means SW corner of TSBD.

Spacing of the 3 shots? I doubt they were a 3-shot burst. She would be unique in that regard. Probably “3 shots” in keeping with official and media accounts of “3 shots.” Making “almost to the Thornton sign” a bit problematic, although that might be a description of the Altgens 6 shot.

82.   James Crawford- Warren Commission Hearing 4 1 64- - It was after the Secret Service Sedan had gone around the corner (the SS vehicle was on the bumper of the p. limo) that I heard the first report and at that time I thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the President's car or some car in the cavalcade there.The second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one.

 

Another “turn” account, apparently.

 

83.   Robert Croft- Powell Tribune story published Nov. 26, 1963- Croft told the Powell Tribune for a story published Nov. 26, 1963, that he was 30 feet from JFK’s limousine when the shots rang out at around 12:30 p.m. Central Time.  (corner of TSBD about Z frame 161)  

 

Do be careful trying to align anything with the fabricated extant Zapruder film. Aside from my mistrust of people’s sense of distance, “away” could have been ahead of, behind, or to the side of the limo. (Bear in mind the limo itself was 21 feet long, mentioned elsewhere.) Close to the turn, anyway. 

 

84.   Mrs. Charles (Avery) Davis- FBI Report 3 20 64- She said she was standing on the lower steps of the TSBD.  She also said she was standing with Judy McCully.  A moment after the p. limo passed her location she heard 3 shots.  How long is a moment.  From where Davis was standing it takes about 5 seconds to pass the TSBD.  More as the p. limo slowed to make the turn.

 

Vague ("how long is a moment?"), but seems to have missed the shot in the turn.

 

85.    Rose Clark- FBI Report- 1 10 64- She was with Jeanette Hooker and Lillian Mooneyham.  They were in Judge Henry King’s court room when the motorcade came down Main Street.  She heard 3 shots.  To see the parade come down Main Street King’s court room must be on the south side. There is a confusion on which court room faces south and where one an watch the parade come down Main Street.  

 

Too vague. She only saw Main St. in any case.

 

86.    Hurchel Jacks- Statement- 11 28 63- We just turned from Main onto Houston, drove one block, and turned left. My car had just straightened up from making the left turn. I was looking directly at the President's car at that time.  I was looking directly at the President's car at that time. At that time I heard a shot ring out which appeared to come from the right rear of the Vice President's car.

 

Jacks was driving the LBJ limo. I think he missed the first shot and was talking about the Altgens 6 shot, which originated from the car behind his. 

 

87.   Jackie Kennedy- 11 29 63- From a Jackie Kennedy Interview:

JFK Murder Jackie Kennedy Reveals All

Rich Torne Published May 10, 2017

Jackie says:

“They were gunning the motorcycles, there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arms and saying “No No No,” with his fist beating---Then Jack turned and turned---

All I remember was a blue grey building up ahead; then turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out….”

The blue-grey building is on Main Street.  Mrs. Kennedy is saying he shooting occurred there.

The reference for this is 11/29/63 The Making of the President 1960 

 

No, I don’t think she was saying the shooting occurred on Main St. Which building was “blue grey”? Where was its location relative to the Triple Underpass? Could it have been a building on Houston St. ahead of the car before the turn onto Elm (rather than a building on “Main” Street? Also, what interview was this?

 

88.    BEDSIDE INTERVIEW WITH JOHN CONNALLY AT PARKLAND HOSPITAL (NOVEMBER 27, 1963)

 

John Connally, Texas Governor at the time, was interviewed by Martin Agronsky, NBC,on November 27, 1963at Dallas' Parkland Hospital.  This was close to a week since Connally was wounded in the presidential limousine with President John F. Kennedy.

 

He said that as the presidential limousine rounded the corner at Houston and Elm he heard a shot and immediately after that he was wounded.  There was time enough between the first and second shot for Connally to realize he was not shot when he heard the first sound of gunfire.

 

His exact words; “And then, we had just turned a corner. I heard a shot.”

Turn, again.

 

89.   Austin Miller- FBI Report- 12-18-63- Standing with Roy Skelton on the Triple Underpass.  He said he saw an open top convertible directly in front of the TSBD. He heard 3 shots. 

 

Too vague. Could be another reference to the turn.

 

90.Madie Reese- FBI Report 11 24 63- She said she was on the second step of the TSBD when the Motorcade passed.  She heard 3 shots.

 

Too vague. No reference to the location of the pres limo.

 

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

No, I don’t think she was saying the shooting occurred on Main St. Which building was “blue grey”? Where was its location relative to the Triple Underpass? Could it have been a building on Houston St. ahead of the car before the turn onto Elm (rather than a building on “Main” Street? Also, what interview was this?

Jackie Kennedy- It is what she said Part II

From a Jackie Kennedy Interview:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZawMA_vXfc

JFK Murder Jackie Kennedy Reveals All

Rich Torne Published May 10, 2017

Jackie says:

“They were gunning the motorcycles, there were these little backfires; there was one noise like that; I thought it was a backfire. Then next I saw Connally grabbing his arms and saying “No No No,” with his fist beating---Then Jack turned and turned---

All I remember was a blue grey building up ahead; then turned back, so neatly; his last expression was so neat; he had his hand out….”

The reference for this is 11/29/63 The Making of the President 1960

People have a tendency to ignore or disbelieve what they don’t understand or what doesn’t make sense to them. Jackie Kennedy said something strange decades ago and it just kind of went over people’s heads.

The problem with this statement by Mrs. Kennedy is there is no blue-grey building down by “X marks the spot” in front of the Grassy Knoll. Nowhere in the Zapruder film will you find a blue-grey building on Elm Street. Everyone believes President Kennedy was shot in front of the Grassy Knoll because of the all-pervasive influence of the Zapruder film and other media.

Let me repeat that. There is no blue-grey building on Elm Street that can be seen driving toward the Triple Underpass. What was she talking about?
In fact, there is no blue-grey building on Elm Street or Houston Street in Dealey Plaza. The Old Court House on Main and Houston has a first floor that is grey. But, the overall impression is one of a red, brick building. You really don’t notice that the first floor is grey when you look at the building. OK, maybe some do notice. I looked at the building for ages and never connected the first floor was grey until someone pointed it out. It was simply a red brick building.

There was a blue-grey building on Main Street just east of the Old Court House on the corner of Main Street and South Record Street. This was the only blue-grey building in the area. This blue-grey building is no longer there. The area is now a park, the John F. Kennedy Memorial Plaza. It vanished shortly after the assassination. The building was gone by at least 1966.  At first it was a parking lot and then the monument.

Jackie Kennedy’s information can be interpreted as the shooting of Jack Kennedy happened just after she noticed a blue grey building ahead. The phrase “last expression” means he was shot and killed there on Main Street just before reaching the area of the Old Court House.

With all of the other assassination evidence saying otherwise, it is reasonable for people to ignore and not be convinced that what she said had any meaning. This notion that President Kennedy was shot on Main Street struck people as bizarre and was ignored. I’m sure this disbelief caused Mrs. Kennedy to move toward what is seen in the Zapruder film. In her WC testimony Rankin leads her and she reluctantly goes where he leads.  If you read her WC testimony it sounds as if she is describing two events.

Contrary to that, I’m not so certain what she said should be ignored. Keep this article in mind in the future as we explore the events of the presidential motorcade coming down Main Street, turning onto Houston Street, and then heading down Elm Street in other media.

The "blue-grey building" is just east of the policeman in the street.  This is what I believe she said.

Edited December 3, 2021 by John Butler