How to debunk the George Hickey theory?

[Denise Hazelwood]

Butler's witnesses #51-60. My responses again in Italics.

 

51.   Curtis Freeman Bishop- 3-17-64 Warren Commission- He was standing on the Triple Underpass as the presidential limousine came into view started down Elm and past the TSBD he heard 3 shots.

 

Vague, but note “started” down Elm.

 

52.   Ewell William Cowsert, FBI report 3-17-64- he was standing on the Elm Street viaduct with a group of fellow employees watching the motorcade with President JOHN F. KENNEDY. COWSERT advised that just as President KENNEDY's car passed the Texas School Book Depository building he heard two or three shots ring outand saw President KENNEDY slump Forward in his seat.

Vague, but note “just as” the car passed the TSBD.

 

53.   L. R. Terry- (L. P. Terry) Neither history.com or the McAdams witness list show any testimony for L. R. Terry.  Marrs’ Crossfire does provide info on Terry on page 25, 2013 ed.  Terry was near Euins and Brennan.  He saw gun and a hand come out of the 6^thfloor window when the motorcade came by.   He heard a shot.  The motorcade stopped in front of the TSBD.

 

A stop or near-stop matching Burnham (the “other” Zapruder film), Truly, Hawkins, and now Terry.

54.   Thomas Adkins- 1977 HSCA? Mark Tyler’s Witness List- 1^stshot when car had just turned the corner.  Last 2 shots within 2 seconds.  This indicates a shot at the Elm Street turn.  

 

“This indicates a shot at the Elm Street turn”—agree. “Last 2 shots within 2 seconds” probably a description of the double-bang. 

 

55.    Cecil Ault-11-22-63 FBI report- After the president’s car turned down onto Elm Street he heard 3 loud reports which he immediately recognize as shots from a high powered rifle. The intersection or in front of the TSBD.

 

Too Vague. 

 

56.   Wilma Bond-Clay Shaw Trial Transcript- She said she was at Houston and Main when President turned corner at went down Houston Street.  She tried to take a picture of the TSBD.  The camera was not rewound.  She heard a firecracker sound.  This occurs when the p. limo is on Houston or in the turn.  She moves over to the far end of the arcade (south side).  She hears two more fire crackers from her right. From where she was located this must be the intersection of Elm and Houston.

 

“in the turn” again

 

57.   Lee Bowers-Warren Commission 4 4 64- He said he could not see the p. limo behind a retaining wall on Houston Street for the first shot.  When the next two shots occurred the p. limo was not visible. It was hidden by the TSBD. The shooting occurred in front of the TSBD.

 

Bowers useful for noting the double-bang on film. Missed hearing any earlier shots. Importantly, did NOT see a shooter on his side of the fence.

 

58.    Howard Brennan- Dallas Sheriff’s Office 1-22-63, DPD Line Up 11-2263, FBI Reports 11-22-63, 12-17-63, and 1-7-64, and Warren Commission 3-24-64. Brennan said many contradictory things. He is often seen as a great xxxx. He was a xxxx.  I think he was forced to lie by the FBI and not tell his true story.  How far was Brennan from the p. limo when he heard shots?  If you cut through several testimonies the distance is not far, a short distance he eventually said.  This means that he heard shooting in front of the TSBD.

I would hesitate to call Brennan a “xxxx,” especially without providing evidence. However, you could describe how his story has changed over time, or how it differs from accounts of others, pointing out the inconsistencies. I do agree that at least part of the shooting occurred when the limo was in front of the TSBD—the “turn” shot & Altgens 6.

 

59.   W. H. Denham- DPD statement 11 22 63-  Officer Denhan was at the Northeast corner of the intersection of Main and Houston when the motorcade turned onto Houston Street.  The p. limo or motorcade was half way past his position when he heard a shot. Shooting occurs in the intersection of Main and Houston.

Too vague. Presidential limo or other motorcade car/s? Half of the motorcade? 

 

60.William Downey- FBI 6 15 64- Downey said he stood at the corner of Houston and Main.  Shortly thereafter the motorcade passed the corner where he stood he heard 3 shots. How long is shortly thereafter? At 18 feet per second it takes approximately 11 seconds to traverse Houston Street and another 5 or 6 seconds to pass the TSBD.

Too vague. “How long is shortly thereafter?” Exactly! And was he talking about the entire “motorcade” or just the Presidential limo, or what? Too many witnesses seem to say "motorcade" when they mean the "president's limo. "Motorcade" includes ALL of the cars.

[Denise Hazelwood]

Butler's witnesses #61-70. My responses again in Italics.

61.   Robert Edwards- Sheriff’s Office 11 22 63- Stated he was on the corner of Elm and Houston with Ronald Fischer. When the president or motorcade rounded the corner he heard 4 shots.

 

Note “4 shots.” Note “rounded the corner.”

 

62.   Stavis Ellis- HSCA Vol. XII, p.23 August 5, 1978- Ellis said that just as he started down the hill of Elm Street (this means he was in the intersection of Elm and Houston), he looked back toward President Kennedy’s car (which means the president was on Houston Street approaching the intersection) and saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb.  Ellis thought it was a fragment grenade.  Sgt. Ellis was not questioned at all in 1963.  This is the reason.  

 

Ellis’ statement was 1978 and memory was probably somewhat off. I believe he was closer to Triple Underpass, not top of Elm headed down, when he saw the “fragment grenade.” President’s car was not on Houston but on Elm. His “fragment grenade” was the skull fragment that landed near Charles Brehm. 

 

63.    Jack Faulkner- Sheriff’s Office 11 22 63- He said he was on the corner of Main and Houston.  The motorcade passed and a few seconds later he heard 3 shots.  Depending on how many seconds this is probably Houston Street or at least in front of the TSBD.

 

Or “turn.” Too vague to differentiate.

 

64.   Peggy Hawkins- FBI Report 4 1 64- She said she was standing in front of the TSBD.  She said as the p. limo just passed in front of the building she heard 3 shots.  She further stated that the p. limo was about 50 feet from her when she heard shooting.  The TSBD is 100 feet wide.  There’s a good chance the FBI adjusted what she said to justpass the building. The words just past or immediately past are found frequently in witness statements.

 

Repeat of # 29 describing Hawkins. Burnham (the “other” Zapruder film), Truly, Hawkins, Terry describing stop or near-stop after the turn.

 

65.   Patricia Ann Lawerence- FBI Report- 11 25 63- When the President's motorcade passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Miss LAWRENCE said she was standing with LUCY WHITAKER in the front row of people on Elm Street at Houston. When the motorcade passed she stated she was looking at Mrs. KENNEDY who was looking to the other side of the car. The President was looking in her direction and she had waved. She heard the shot fired as the president was waving.  

 

The President wasn’t “waving.” He was going into decorticate posture.

66.   Judith McCully- FBI Report 3 19 64- She said she was standing on the front steps of the TSBD with Mrs. Charles Davis to watch the motorcade pass.  She said “as the motorcade passed, I heard some shots fired.”

 

Too vague regarding the position of the President’s limo.

 

67.   Mary Ann Mitchell- FBI Report 2 18 64- She said she went out from the Court Records Building to watch the parade with James N. Crawford.  They positioned themselves on the Southeast Corner of Elm and Houston in front of the Courts Records Building.  She said “as the presidential curb passed the curb in front of the TSBD. she and her companion heard a large report or explosion.”  She and Crawford did not say this at the WC hearing.

 

“Presidential curb”? Probably meant “car.” 

 

68.   F. Lee Mudd- FBI Report 1 28 64- Mudd said he was standing on the North side of Elm Street about 75 or 100 feet from the SW corner of the TSBD when the p. limo began approaching his position.  When the p. limo was 50 or more feet away he heard two shots.  If the numbers are worked here the shots occurred as the p. limo passed Mannikin Row and perhaps before the Stemmons sign.  Definitely not the official story.

 

Although I don’t always trust people’s sense of distance, note: “approaching” his position. “Definitely not the official story.” Definitely not, agreed. Also note distance is from TSBD, not limo.

 

69.     Ruth Nelson- FBI Report 3 23 64- Ruth said she did not see the p. limo when she heard shots.  She was watching the motorcade, but could not see the President.  She was standing in the same place as Yola Hopson who said she could not see the President when she heard shots due to the p. limo being obscured by trees in front of the TBSD.   

 

Too vague. Where were Nelson & Hopson? They "couldn't see anything" in any case.

 

70.Roberta Parker- FBI 12 16 63- Roberta said she was standing on the SW corner of Houston and Elm directly across from the TSBD.  The p. limo “had passed by only a short distance when she heard a shot”.  The Elsie Dorman film shows the group she was with, but the Zapruder film does not. They were standing close to Houston Street east of Howard Brennan and near the Railroad Man figure.  This slightly is east and across from the TSBD doorway.  A “short distance” could very well be in front of the TSBD.

 

"Only a short distance” is too vague. Could be at the end of the turn. Don’t think they were right at the corner, but near the corner on Houston. Pict of them identified in Dorman film would help, but "only a short distance" does not.

 

[Denise Hazelwood]

Butler's witnesses #71-80. My responses again in Italics.

 

71.   Frank Reilly- FBI Report 12 19 63- Reilly said he was a railroad worker and with others planned to view the parade from the railroad underpass.  “He saw two cars turn unto Elm toward the underpass and at this time heard 3 shots...”

 

Which 2 cars? Pres limo & follow-up car most likely. Note mention of “turn” again.

 

72.    Pearl Springer- FBI Report 12 5 63- She was on Houston Street 17 steps from the Elm Street curb.  She was with Carolyn Walther.  As the motorcade passed and turned to go down Elm Street she heard a shot.

 

“turn” again.

 

73.   I. C. Todd- Sheriff’s Office 11 27 63- Left the County Jail and went out onto Houston Street.  A few seconds after the motorcade passed by and had turned the corner off Houston onto Elm Street he heard a backfire.

 

Too vague, but note “turned the corner.”

 

74.   Malcom Barclay- WC 26H552- Standing on the corner of Houston and Main.  He heard shots as the president passed by.

 

Corner, again.

 

75.   Marie Muchmore- FBI 12 4 63- was standing on the corner of Houston when the motorcade passed by she heard the first shot.

 

Too vague. What part of the “motorcade”? Note her film showing Warren Taylor’s door in the VP follow-up car door opening, however. 

 

76.    Marie Muchmore- FBI 2 18 64- In this report she changed in her testimony from the FBI report of 12 4 63 to hearing a shot when the p. limo turned right unto Elm Street.

 

Turned LEFT onto Elm Street. Note “turn” again.

77.   Alan Smith- Chicago Tribune article 11 23 63- He claimed he saw the shooting of the President close up at 10 feet away from the shooting on Main Street.

 

Read the original article. He was standing “right under the assassin’s window” on Elm Street. And note that young Alan Smith gives us the “forehead” as the entrance wound location for this shot.

 

78.   C. M. Jones- Sheriff’s Office- 11 22 63- Standing in front of Criminial Courts Building- a "few short seconds" after the vehicle passed heard the shots.  What are a few short seconds?  The TSBD is 100 feet in length.  Depending on where he was in front of the CCB then as much as another 100 feet can be added on Houston Street after the CCB. 200 feet divided by 18.3 (Zapruder film time/feet is used) equals to about 11seconds.  Shooting either occurred on Houston or in front of the TSBD.

 

Too vague, as noted. “What are a few short seconds?” But note analysis of “on Houston or in front of the TSBD” is right at the turn.

 

79.    John Chism- Sheriff’s Office- 11-22-63- Standing in front of the Stemmon sign and heard gunshot when the p. limo was almost to them.  It’s about 50 -60 feet from the corner of the TSBD to the Stemmons sign.  The p. limo is 21 feet long traveling at about 18 feet per second.  Shooting could have occurred at the corner of the TSBD. This idea is enhanced by Chism’s wife’s Sheriff Office statement.

 

Again, I don’t trust people’s sense of distance. But from this description, Chism’s shot was probably the Altgens 6 shot, which I believe bounced off the Stemmons sign they were near. I think the Chisms missed the first shot, but how could they have missed hearing the one that hit the sign right near them? Note that 18 fps (or 12 mph) was once the limo got up to normal speed. In the turn, it was going 3 to 5 mph. Note Chism being tackled by a Secret Service agent who thought Chism was the assassin.

 

80.Faye Chism- Sheriff’s Office- 11 22 63- Faye says they were standing at the corner near the Stemmons sign.  Did she mean they were standing at the corner of the TSBD?  She said she heard the first shot as the President was coming through.

 

Again, probably the Altgens 6 shot. See #79.

[Denise Hazelwood]

From Chris Bristow,

 

Quote

I think the weakest part of the theory is that it requires the 'official' head wound location. The Parkland staff's testimony is highly consistent and there is a great deal of corroboration by autopsy personnel. The weight of the evidence in their testimony and reports from that day are far greater than the very weak counter arguments that support the WC or Hickey injury location.
 It does seem likely that he discharged the AR as many people like Sen Yarborough distinctly smelled gunpowder.

Well, you're halfway there, anyway. 

I assume that by "wound location" you are referring to the back of the head blow-out? Note my observation of the HSCA published X-ray with its "occipital defect" caption ("occipital defect" meaning a hole in the BACK of the head) used to create the composite "enhanced" X-ray image portraying a "front" of the head blow-out. 

The back of the head blow-out is explained by the earlier forehead shot from the TSBD as noted in Parts 6 & 7 in my documentary. There was NO "front" of the head blow-out, which was created to assist the fiction that all the shots came from behind. However, this first forehead shot (creating the back of the head blow-out) did come from the TSBD. It was covered up to hide initial SS inaction, and to try to make the AR-15 shot fit the math fiction of "three" shots. Three shots fired from the TSBD, but additional shots fired by the SS. 

The discharged AR-15 fits neatly with the 6.0mm EOP entrance wound. The 6.5mm Carcanno bullet does not. Not to mention that the AR-15 discharge explains the cover-up very well. 

Or by "wound location" do you mean cowlick vs. EOP. I accept the EOP and resolve the "trunk of the car" trajectory problem by accepting Z-film fabrication. Donahue accepted cowlick and was unaware of any authenticity issues of the Z film. If one likes both the EOP AND the Z-film, one has a trajectory problem, because the shot would have to have come from...the trunk of the car, given JFK's head position in Z312.

[Chris Davidson]

Hi Denise,

Welcome to the forum.

I would first like to commend you for the research you have provided, it is quite voluminous.

We are in agreement on some aspects of the WC charade, but not all.

The first question I would ask is:

Disregarding all films, photos and witness testimony for now, if someone is shot in the forehead in front of the 6th floor snipers nest or shortly thereafter, I know of no-one else(Alan Smith excluded-location questionable) who describes blood running down either the front/back of JFK's face/head as the limo approaches/passes them moving west down Elm St.

If the first shot was a forehead shot and it incapacitated JFK where his throat grab was an involuntary response, shouldn't there be some reference to blood on his face as he wouldn't possess the ability to wipe it off.

The TSBD equivalent out on Elm St is Station# 2+50.0

The extant Z313 shot was plotted at Station# 4+65.3

The span between those two points is 215.3ft.

 

 

 

[John Butler]

6 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Hi Denise,

Welcome to the forum.

I would first like to commend you for the research you have provided, it is quite voluminous.

We are in agreement on some aspects of the WC charade, but not all.

Chris,

Ditto.

[John Butler]

On 11/29/2021 at 6:01 PM, Chris Davidson said:

I surely can list a number of alteration methods which would account for the disappearance of Croft.

As I mentioned in the comment immediately above the one Chris linked to, we've had two decades' worth of anomalies being identified that have turned out to be worthless. The burden of proof has never been met, and after 20 years of detailed scrutiny and failed attempts, it isn't likely to be, either.

And, therein lies your SOP.

Making bold claims is a disinformation technique quite often used against me by my two foremost critics.

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

Once any part of the film is show to be fabricated, the entire film is suspect. 

I am in total agreement with this.

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

The closer to 100% certainty a witness is, the greater the probability that the witness is correct. Williams' uncertainty may be evident here. However (as I briefly mention in my documentary), there was not only the TSBD shot fired just after the limo turned onto Elm St., there was also the possibility of a Secret Service warning shot fired (by one of Johnson's follow-up car agents--see  Warren Taylor's opening door in the Muchmore film and the "rejected" impulse prior to the first "positive" match in the acoustical evidence. Being farther back in the motorcade, Johnson's agents had a better view of the TSBD window and may well have fired a warning shot before the first TSBD shot was fired.

Denise,

You might also take a look at Altgens 5.  This is an altered photo.  See my work on that.  Why the alteration?  I thought about that for years and can only come to the conclusion that shots were fired on Houston Street.

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

Right! This was the "kill shot" shot in my documentary, seen by Alan Smith, Pierce Allman, others. There is corroboration for this.

The "kill" shot on Elm Street could not be seen by Alan Smith.  He was on Main Street as I have adequately demonstrated in other posts.

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

I discuss 5 shots in my documentary, with the acknowledged possibility of an additional warning shot before the first TSBD shot. "As the motorcade turned into the intersection" is somewhat problematic. Does "motorcade" mean the President's limo? Other motorcade vehicles? Her "smoke on a little hill" would be the AR-15 "puff of smoke" blown toward the north west direction by the wind.

Denise,

Thanks for going through and pointing out my many inadequacies in typing and thinking.  As I am reading through your comments, I am seeing that I am not sufficiently clear on some statements.  At the time of preparing these statements I had just read through a particular witness statement, and some times more than one statement.  It seemed clear to me at the time.

I have to disagree on shots in Dealey Plaza.  I believe there were many groups of shots numbering 3 in total.  These groups of 3 shots were fired from different locations and were heard generally as only 3 shots.  A small number of witnesses heard from 4 to 6.  The noise of the motorcade vehicles, crowd noise, sirens, vehicle noise particularly motorbikes, motorbikes backfiring, etc limited people to hearing 3 shots in their area and not shots from some distance away.  They heard shots that were generally heard as a firecracker noise rather than a rifle noise which may indicate they were "short" rounds or possibly fired from a greater distance.

I going to print out your comments and go back and see if I can adjust things to be more concise and clearer.  I don't necessarily agree on the too "vague" comments.  Some cases yes.  Others, no.

I gave a reference for each witness statement on where it came from.  This was so if anyone had doubts, they could go and look at what was said by the witness.       

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

Finally, some light relief: two "every piece of evidence is altered" aficionados debating between themselves which piece of evidence is more altered than the other. The Dealey Plaza photo record has been proven time and again to be self-authenticating, regardless of John Butler and Denise Hazelwood's theories to the contrary.

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

However (as I briefly mention in my documentary), there was not only the TSBD shot fired just after the limo turned onto Elm St., there was also the possibility of a Secret Service warning shot fired (by one of Johnson's follow-up car agents--see  Warren Taylor's opening door in the Muchmore film and the "rejected" impulse prior to the first "positive" match in the acoustical evidence.

I am going to go through your statements and offer comment in the hope that those comments may be of value to you.  

Often speculation, or hypothesis making, leads to clearer thinking and is the beginning of further thought and investigation.  I know of no proof that any shots were fired from the Johnson security vehicle.  There are several media examples of the door of that vehicle being open on Main, Houston, and Elm.  Altgens 6 shows a rifle (more likely a shotgun) sticking out of the open door and erased from the photo leaving some trace of its image. 

Something happened on Houston Street just as the p. limo turned onto Houston.  Altgens 5 has been altered.  That alteration occurs as the vehicle moves across the cross-walk lines going north on Houston.  8 of the known films go haywire down by the Court Records building.  To me that is statistically impossible for 8 films to go bad in that area.  That indicates alteration to cover more shooting prior to the turn onto Elm Street.

[John Butler]

23 hours ago, Denise Hazelwood said:

"Fireworks" was a common descriptor. The main problem is HOW MUCH after in "after the President's car turned down Elm St." I contend that the first TSBD shot came right at the end of the limo's turn but before proceeding any distance past the window 

True.  I believe that many witness statements were distorted by the FBI as far as location is concerned.  I discounted about as many statements as I accepted simply due to vagueness of description, use of the phrases such as "passed the TSBD" or "just passed the TSBD", "turned down the hill to the triple underpass".

Many of the statements early on were made and not distorted, but later in the day and on the next day things changed.  The Marion Baker statements are a good example of that.   

[John Butler]

On 11/30/2021 at 10:19 PM, Denise Hazelwood said:

Dorman was not hanging out the window, was still inside the building as she was filming. Given the various sources of the shots, she could well have been confused by the source of the shots. She did film limo on Houston St., lots of camera swinging otherwise. No guarantee her film didn't get "the (same) treatment" that the Z film & others got.

I don't know where the idea of Elsie Dormans hanging out the window is from.  Not from me.  I once commented to a fellow that said Elsie Dorman was the worst photographer in Dealey Plaza.  What I said was that her film was altered heavily on Houston Street.  There were claims that she had this film locked up in a lawyer's office thus saying it was pristine.  I believe the FBI, CIA, or someone black bagged that film and altered it.  It is certainly altered and that can be proven.  Look at the things I have said about that.