John Armstrong on Black Op Radio tonight

[Jim Hargrove]

On 12/31/2021 at 11:12 AM, John Butler said:

Judging from this Lee could lack the problem of Harvey's back of the neck hair problem.  But, he appears to have had a haircut which gives no real way to say.

For those critics that argue there was only one Lee Harvey Oswald, check out the missing front teeth.  Harvey, when he was dug up out of his grave, had all of his front teeth.  

John,

I can't remember if we've talked about this before, but below is a photo that I think shows LEE Harvey Oswald in Ruby's Carousel Club.  The inset photo is from Lee HARVEY Oswald's 1959 passport, which John A. always believed had a photo of LEE.  Note the hair.  Could this be a toupee, or photo editing?

Edited January 2, 2022 by Jim Hargrove

[John Butler]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John,

I can't remember if we've talked about this before, but below is a photo the I think shows LEE Harvey Oswald in Ruby's Carousel Club.  The inset photo is from Lee HARVEY Oswald's 1959 passport, which John A. always believed had a photo of LEE.  Note the hair.  Could this be a toupee, or photo editing?

Jim,

I believe that is another person whose name escapes me at the moment.  Larry Crawford??  Many people have thought that was Lee Oswald, but over time come to realize that is another person who worked for Jack Rubly.  This was a young man that fled Dallas after the JFKA.

We also have the infamous Tammi True.  IMO, she is the real Babushka Lady.  

As far as the photo of "Oswald" we have two versions in Oswald there.  Both Harvey and Lee.  If I am remembering correctly this was from Jack White who though that this was an altered photo composite.

This was a passport photo.  Below is a comparison to Harvey at the DPS:

These two pics are connected by the left ear characteristics of a double bend in the rim.   This indicates the left ear of the passport photo is Harvey.  Jack thought this passport photo was a combination of the two split down the middle and connected.  This was so either one could use the same passport.

I find this to be a good possibility since there are other features amiss.  The passport person's right eye is larger than the left.  The left nostril is smaller than the right.  The lips don't quite match.  But, this is arguable.  The passport person lacks the slight fold at the bottom of Harvey's chin. The neckline on each side is not the same.  The hair and hairline is definitely not the same as in the hunter photo or the DPS photo.

Larry Crafard instead of Crawford.  It's the old school saying "learn it wrong, it stays wrong".

This maybe a bit of overkill:

This photo is Harvey Oswald.  The man who was shot at the Dallas Police Station.  He has just turned 17 years old here.  He looks a bit older than just turned 17 here.

But, all the characteristics fit.  Ear.  Eyes.  Nose.  Chin, except the slight fold which might be there.  Neckline, and Hairline.

This is Harvey at 17 on entry into the military.  He has a GI haircut and is being measured for height.  5'9".  Inductees are lined up in front of a chart like this with their back and head touching the chart for a fair representation of their height. 

Harvey was 5'9".  Any other measurement indicates a different Oswald. 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by John Butler

[Jim Hargrove]

Thanks, John.  Interesting observations.

I’m pretty sure Jack White believed the composite image of “Lee Harvey Oswald” was on the Department of Defense card given to Lee HARVEY Oswald in 1959.

Richard Case Nagell carried a copy of the same card but with a slightly different picture.  Note the tie in the fuzzy mug shot.

Jack designed the cover for H&L, illustrating what he believed was the composite image on the DOD card.

If memory serves (I haven’t double checked) there is an almost identical mug shot of our boy(s) but wearing a tie. Almost everything about “Lee Harvey Oswald” is weird.

[Jim Hargrove]

The Half Bills

As John A. wrote on our website, “neither of these half-dollar bills were listed on the police inventory of 11/23/63, the joint FBI/Dallas Police inventory of Oswald's possessions on 11/26/63, nor were these items photographed. At the National Archives, in Adelphi, MD, I inspected and handled each item of inventory listed on the joint FBI/Dallas Police inventory of 11/26/63. These items were not among the inventory nor were they ever mentioned by the Warren Commission.”

The link to the Dallas JFKA archives that once brought up the non-annotated version of this document is now broken. As late as 2019, this link, would bring it up.

Broken link: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2288-001.gif

Now the document is available through this web.archive.org link:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160703001218if_/http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2288-001.gif

Curiously, the very next electronic link (to 2289-001.gif) was to a list entitled “Possessions of Lee Harvey Oswald.” I thought that might be significant, but others pointed out that these documents are seldom put in any logical order. On the other hand, this history does indicate that the “half bills” note was in a Dallas collection devoted to the JFKA and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Forum member Steve Thomas had perhaps the most expertise searching through the online Dallas archives that have now moved or disappeared. If he happens to read this, Steve might be able to tell us if the non-annotated “half bills” document is still online from an official Dallas source.

As for the annotated version (see below) John A. says he got it directly from Dallas Archivist Cindy Smolovik, who was in charge of preserving all of the more than 11,000 pages of DPD documents about the Kennedy Assassination when they were released in early 1992. If John is remembering this correctly, then my guess is that someone inserted the page into the Archives after the annotation was made.

Other than the questioned annotation, there is no direct evidence that an Oswald actually had the half bills in question, although with so many different wallets in evidence, especially the “arrest” wallet and the “10th and Patton” wallet that Croy said he found and gave to Westbrook, it certainly seems likely to me.

Who else would need this CIA-style identification procedure? Texas Theater patron Jack Davis recalled that Lee HARVEY Oswald moved from seat to seat, sitting close to other patrons on the sparsely populated main floor. It sounds as if he was looking for a “contact,” perhaps one that would hold the other half of a dollar bill.

This is, of course, speculation, but can we think of anyone who, closely associated with the JFK assassination, would adopt a known Agency technique for identification? How about a kid who never finished a single semester in high school, but who somehow learned to score about the same in a Russian language military exam as he did in in English language questions, a kid who went from the Marines to the Soviet Union and back to the U.S. and who the CIA claims it never even interviewed? The whole spy saga is a joke, but not a very funny one.

[John Butler]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Thanks, John.  Interesting observations.

I’m pretty sure Jack White believed the composite image of “Lee Harvey Oswald” was on the Department of Defense card given to Lee HARVEY Oswald in 1959.

Richard Case Nagell carried a copy of the same card but with a slightly different picture.  Note the tie in the fuzzy mug shot.

Jack designed the cover for H&L, illustrating what he believed was the composite image on the DOD card.

If memory serves (I haven’t double checked) there is an almost identical mug shot of our boy(s) but wearing a tie. Almost everything about “Lee Harvey Oswald” is weird.

Thanks Jim

On the Harvey and Lee book cover, whose who?  If the right (left hand) half pic is Harvey, and I believe that to be true.  Who is the left (right hand) pic?  Doesn't look like a Lee photo.  Lee's features are courser.  I have a notion of a 3rd Oswald.  No real proof for it except the way that guy looks.  And, the photo in Russia of Lee and Marina posing on a bridge? I think.  It is because of the shortness of that Oswald.  Definitely not 5'11" or 5'9".  Some folks in Russia described Oswald as shorter than the figures above.

It doesn't make sense to have just two operatives.  You (being OSS guys in the CIA) would have a vast resource of refugee children after WW2 to select from.  Why not the more the merrier?  If Oswald is in 3 places that would be more difficult to figure out what they are doing.  I don't know of any incidents where there would be 3 Oswalds at once so it limits the notion considerably.  Perhaps, even doing away with it.  

[Greg Doudna]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The Half Bills

As John A. wrote on our website, “neither of these half-dollar bills were listed on the police inventory of 11/23/63, the joint FBI/Dallas Police inventory of Oswald's possessions on 11/26/63, nor were these items photographed. At the National Archives, in Adelphi, MD, I inspected and handled each item of inventory listed on the joint FBI/Dallas Police inventory of 11/26/63. These items were not among the inventory nor were they ever mentioned by the Warren Commission.”

The link to the Dallas JFKA archives that once brought up the non-annotated version of this document is now broken. As late as 2019, this link, would bring it up.

Broken link: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2288-001.gif

Now the document is available through this web.archive.org link:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160703001218if_/http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2288-001.gif

Curiously, the very next electronic link (to 2289-001.gif) was to a list entitled “Possessions of Lee Harvey Oswald.” I thought that might be significant, but others pointed out that these documents are seldom put in any logical order. On the other hand, this history does indicate that the “half bills” note was in a Dallas collection devoted to the JFKA and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Forum member Steve Thomas had perhaps the most expertise searching through the online Dallas archives that have now moved or disappeared. If he happens to read this, Steve might be able to tell us if the non-annotated “half bills” document is still online from an official Dallas source.

As for the annotated version (see below) John A. says he got it directly from Dallas Archivist Cindy Smolovik, who was in charge of preserving all of the more than 11,000 pages of DPD documents about the Kennedy Assassination when they were released in early 1992.

Jim Hargrove, thank you for this. It does look like it was included early on among other Oswald case items. That second link you gave above is what convinces me there may be something to this. The ending number of 2288-001.gif, I checked for adjoining numbers both before and after, and found 2284 to 2293 consecutively (each with -001.gif suffix) all are legitimate and recognizeable Oswald/Ruby case evidence or notes, without exception, therefore those dollar bill halves right in the midst of them at 2288 should be too, since all the others are.

However at least two of those items, #2287 (immediately before the dollar bill halves note) and #2290, are Jack Ruby (search warrant for the Vegas Club, and Ruby revolver information).  

Therefore although this data you give is pretty strong indication those dollar bill halves were in with other Oswald case evidence (satisfactorily answering my question on that), they could alternatively belong to Ruby or someone else, alternative to Oswald, even if Oswald is presumptively the leading candidate. It is puzzling there is no other identification on those dollar bill halves--no name, location, date.

But you are right again. The claim that these dollar bill halves may be associated with Oswald has some claim or plausibility to it even though it falls well short of proof.

Two other of the 2284-2293 series are similarly undated, unidentified handwritten notes (though in different handwriting):  #2286 looks like someone wrote a name to cross-check as a lead related to Oswald, and #2285 looks like notes for a phone call to or from the Warren Commission in D.C. related to something about police officer affidavits. 

For all we know, those half dollar bill serial numbers could be some notes phoned in from elsewhere in 1964 asking to check whatever in the Oswald evidence.

The puzzle is if they were from Oswald's person or belongings turned up in searches after his arrest, why not listed on the evidence lists. But this does prima facie establish that that handwritten slip of paper with serial numbers of two half dollar bills looks like it was in the Oswald/Ruby case files at the Dallas Police Department.  

[Al Fordiani]

On 1/1/2022 at 2:41 PM, Matt Allison said:

And for what possible reason would such a convoluted, Rube Goldberg-esque scenario be contemplated?

My last post on this thread.  And again, sticking to Westbrook and the capture of Oswald and not getting into the bigger picture Harvey and Lee stuff.

I do not see what you mean by "Rube Goldberg-esque."  I see the scenario put forth by Armstrong to be simple and direct.  Going into the assassination, the plotters have an issue they must solve: getting Oswald into custody; or better yet getting Oswald killed before taken into custody.  Because the issue is that there is no reason to chase or arrest Oswald right in the aftermath of the assassination.  There just isn't any true immediate evidence.  By the time that any of the evidence -- the MC rifle, the bullets, even dubious eye-witness reports -- point the finger at Oswald, he potentially could be long gone.  

So the plotters need a pretext, a reason to go after Oswald with full force while the evidence against him for JFK is developed.  Better yet, they need a way to eliminate him before he is captured, then have the evidence against him developed while he is already dead.

So a simple plan is developed by the plotters to be managed by Westbrook: Oswald under orders is to get on a particular bus.  Tippit under orders is to drive to a particular spot for a meet.  Westbrook and Croy will intercept Oswald on the bus and accompany him  to the meet with Tippit.  Professional killers at the meet take out both Oswald and Tippit; the scene is staged to look like Oswald and Tippit killed each other (or Oswald was killed fleeing by someone else); Westbrook manages the crime scene and plants the key Hidell evidence linking Oswald to the MC rifle.  Dead Oswald is taken into custody (the morgue) as the killer of Tippit.  Evidence then develops linking dead Oswald to the assassination.  Simple and clean. (I'm assuming that there was probably a good reason for the plotters to kill Tippit; maybe even just as a loose end that could conveniently be tied up.....)

But Oswald foiled that exact scheme by getting off the bus quickly and dodging Westbrook (and Croy).  So Westbrook tried to intercept Oswald at his rooming house, but then had to go to a backup plan of capture in the Texas Theater (a meet Oswald obviously still trusted).  There was still needed the pretext to take Oswald into custody, so the Tippit murder must still happen; but Oswald cannot be killed alongside Tippit, and gets captured alive instead.  In the end this is good news for us because it caused the plotters to tip their hand to history more than they wanted to -- like exposure of the second wallet and Westbrook....and all of Oswald's public statements....all the way to the Ruby shooting of Oswald (which seems was abetted by the same Croy.)

My conjecture is that if Oswald was killed as planned, the whole unfolding of (planted) evidence against Oswald as the assassin would have happened a little more slowly and organically, so as not to be so obvious that the fix was in.  As it played out, the police were already calling Oswald the presidential assassin at the Texas Theater, there is no way they could innocently know that.  

Bottom line on the title referenced presentation:  Based on Armstrong's analysis of Westbrook's testimony, I believe Westbrook was a fore-knowledge conspirator.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Al Fordiani

[Jim Hargrove]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:44 AM, John Butler said:

Thanks Jim

On the Harvey and Lee book cover, whose who?  If the right (left hand) half pic is Harvey, and I believe that to be true.  Who is the left (right hand) pic? 

John has always said that he thought the left half of the DOD photo was of LEE Oswald while the right half was of HARVEY.  But he also, when asked, always says he doesn’t trust the photo evidence any more than other pieces of evidence in this case.

7 hours ago, Al Fordiani said:

 

Bottom line on the title referenced presentation:  Based on Armstrong's analysis of Westbrook's testimony, I believe Westbrook was a fore-knowledge conspirator.

Westbrook’s hands are all over the set-up of “Oswald” in this case.  The director of DPD personnel somehow manages to “find” the jacket, “find” the 10th and Patton wallet, “discover” the Hidell IDs, and still becomes the first cop at the Texas Theater, and even after that he keeps the pistol that allegedly killed Tippit right next to his desk for an hour or so.  What a guy!

The excuses Westbrook and Croy make to ‘splain their times supposedly missing in action are laughable.  The WC attorneys may have had an inkling that Croy had something to do with “Oswald’s” death.  They repeatedly advised him to get legal counsel during his testimony.  Croy must have somehow known the Commissioners were on the job to cover up the truth, not to find it.

You’ve made some very good summaries of John A’s points, Al, and it would be nice to go over a few more.  If you can be coaxed into staying in this thread a bit longer, I’ll try to stick to the subject of John’s essay.  It contains a whole lot of significant insights beyond questions about multiple Oswalds.
 

[Al Fordiani]

40 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

John has always said that he thought the left half of the DOD photo was of LEE Oswald while the right half was of HARVEY.  But he also, when asked, always says he doesn’t trust the photo evidence any more than other pieces of evidence in this case.

Westbrook’s hands are all over the set-up of “Oswald” in this case.  The director of DPD personnel somehow manages to “find” the jacket, “find” the 10th and Patton wallet, “discover” the Hidell IDs, and still becomes the first cop at the Texas Theater, and even after that he keeps the pistol that allegedly killed Tippit right next to his desk for an hour or so.  What a guy!

The excuses Westbrook and Croy make to ‘splain their times supposedly missing in action are laughable.  The WC attorneys may have had an inkling that Croy had something to do with “Oswald’s” death.  They repeatedly advised him to get legal counsel during his testimony.  Croy must have somehow known the Commissioners were on the job to cover up the truth, not to find it.

You’ve made some very good summaries of John A’s points, Al, and it would be nice to go over a few more.  If you can be coaxed into staying in this thread a bit longer, I’ll try to stick to the subject of John’s essay.  It contains a whole lot of significant insights beyond questions about multiple Oswalds.
 

Jim,

Go for it.  I was starting to feel that I was just going to start repeating myself. I agree with your last statement that the Armstrong presentation contains a lot of insights beyond questions about multiple Oswalds.  If you have a few more things to discuss, I’m game.

[Jim Hargrove]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:09 AM, Al Fordiani said:

It shows how much the DPD was willing to go along that Westbrook was able to massage everything internally right down to Croy making way for Ruby.

Perhaps it goes even deeper than that.  David Josephs and John A. have been collaborating on some research about the killing of “Oswald,” and David found something very interesting.  Apparently, the DPD cop in charge of security around the elevator leading from the parking lot to the spot where Oswald was killed  (there’s a ramp nearby as well) was a “reserve officer.”  This was a Sunday.  

I’ll bet, but can’t prove, that the reserve officer was Ken Croy.  I think the WC lawyers suspected the same thing.  If so, the most logical assumption is that it was Croy’s job to lead Ruby to Oswald at just the time he (Oswald) was brought out from the jail office area to the waiting cops and reporters.

Look at the three photos near the end of the article that started this thread.  Croy appears, and then Ruby appears, and then Croy starts to back away.

[John Butler]

17 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

But he also, when asked, always says he doesn’t trust the photo evidence any more than other pieces of evidence in this case.

Almost everything concerning Lee Oswald has been converted into Harvey Oswald.  The favored methods are face masks, composite photos, low resolution photos, shadowed features, and more.

So, it is hard to say who's who.  I am losing my facial recognition skills according to the wife.  She usually beats me in identifying actors and actresses from by gone eras.  That's why I adopted the Harvey Oswald ID characteristics from the DPS photo of Harvey to help identify others.  On the composite split pics on the cover of Harvey and Lee there is not enough characteristics to say positively this is Harvey and this is Lee.    

As you can see from this blowup, it is easy to id alterations such as the difference in the size of the eyes and nostrils.  The left side of the nose is smaller, and that alteration is somewhat helped by the shadow covering it.   The left ear of Harvey has been mirrored and placed as a right ear (or maybe the whole half of the face, I can't tell).  The right (left hand side) side of the pic doesn't quite look like Harvey.  The left (right hand side) has Harvey's hair pattern of a comb over.  

So, we may be looking not at half photos, but quarter photos (or some smaller parts put together).  Most people looking at this would accept it as a photo of Lee Harvey Oswald.  I don't.

John Armstrong may be correct, but I still have reservations.     

Edited January 5, 2022 by John Butler

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Butler said:

Almost everything concerning Lee Oswald has been converted into Harvey Oswald.  The favored methods are face masks, composite photos, low resolution photos, shadowed features, and more.

More nonsense about "face masks." Were the conspirators also investors in the leading "face mask" company of the era? Because they sure loved to use them willy-nilly while faking all of the evidence in the case, according to John Butler. There is no such person as "Harvey Oswald" and there never was.

[John Butler]

JC,

Do you remember that old saying "Where's the beef?".  Instead of making bold, declaratory statements, show proof that what I am saying is wrong.  Instead of "nonsense", "willy nilly" and other descriptions where is your proof that I am wrong?

You declare that there never was a Harvey Oswald.  John Armstrong has assembled countless facts in Harvey and Lee concerning two Oswalds.  These are facts not declaratory statements.  

Never was a Harvey Oswald?  Sometime back I was reading through Robert Groden's book The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald and I came across a good copy of the Civil Air Patrol photo when Lee Oswald was a teenager.  The photo also has David Ferrie, who Lee never knew, ha ha, in it as one of the instructors.

Before this photo was taken Lee Oswald was in a fight and lost at least one or possibly two teeth in the upper tooth row.  It was a lateral incisor and possibly a canine.  This is visible in that photo through magnification.  Lee lost these teeth and Harvey retained his. 

There is just a few years difference between Harvey, age 17, and Lee, possibly 14 or 15.  Lee is younger than Harvey in the pics.  Lee, on the left lost those teeth in a fight.

Another:

And, another:

The man know as Harvey Oswald never lost any of his upper front teeth (incisors).

John Armstrong has assembled countless facts and figures in Harvey and Lee.  Others have contributed many more.  

I don't need any of it to know there was a Harvey and Lee.  This is not to disparage John Armstrong or anyone else.  He has done something wonderful.

All I need is to look at these photos and know Lee Harvey Oswald was two different people.  It is a beginning to understand the rest.

Edited January 5, 2022 by John Butler

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

John Butler writes:

Quote

Instead of making bold, declaratory statements, show proof that what I am saying is wrong.  Instead of "nonsense", "willy nilly" and other descriptions where is your proof that I am wrong?

It isn't up to Jonathan or anyone else to disprove John Butler's wild speculations about face masks and doctored photos.

The burden of proof is on John. He has made a claim, and it is up to him to prove his case. If John can't get his head around this basic principle, here's an example:

1. President Kennedy had a top-secret long-term doppelganger.
2. We know this because in some photos his earlobes kinda sorta look a bit different.
3. His doppelganger was shot in Dallas.
4. For security reasons, the real President Kennedy had been hiding in the trunk of the presidential limousine the whole time (that's why Jackie climbed out of her seat, to see if he was OK) .
5. The real President Kennedy was covered in a blanket and whisked into the basement of Parkland Hospital, where he stayed for a few weeks until the fuss had died down.
6. Then he was beamed up into an alien spaceship, transformed into a penguin, and sent to live out the rest of his days in Antarctica.*

It's up to you to prove me wrong!

Quote

All I need is to look at these photos and know Lee Harvey Oswald was two different people.

And there we have it, ladies and gentlemen:

1. I looked at a few photos of one person.
2. I found some trivial discrepancies.
3. I neglected to search for plausible, rational explanations for those discrepancies.
4. I concluded that the photos must be of two (or three, or four) people.
5. Therefore a vast conspiracy was at work, doctoring photos of Oswald by using face masks, not to mention faking almost all of the photos and home movies taken in Dealey Plaza.

There was no good reason for anyone to alter any of those photos of Oswald, because the double-doppelganger scheme was incoherent and could never have happened, as I pointed out a few days ago.

* By the way, if John Armstrong wants to use the JFK-doppelganger-turns-into-a-penguin idea for his next book, I'd appreciate an acknowledgement.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Jeremy Bojczuk
corrected a typo

[John Butler]

11 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It isn't up to Jonathan or anyone else to disprove John Butler's wild speculations about face masks and doctored photos.

JB,

I see you are in the same boat as Jonathan.  Factless.  Neither of you can disprove what I am saying.  It isn't up to me to disprove what I am saying.  It isn't up to me to dispute baseless charges.

Wild speculations?  Baseless charges?  How about wild and baseless accusations?    

Edited January 6, 2022 by John Butler