IS THE FORWARD HEAD MOVEMENT IN 313 REALLY FROM A HEAD SHOT?

[John Butler]

7 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

Yeah it's frames 294 and 295

Yes.  There is too much head movement for 2 frames can only mean another alteration of the Z film.  If so, would this confirm what others think about removing a large number of frames from the film so that it runs at a slower frame rate of 18 frames per second rather than say 24 or 40?

[John Butler]

Another illustration of this is the Kennedy head shot.  Z frames 312 to 317 have all the material that comes from Kennedy's head dissipate in a third of a second or less.  Is that realistic.  No, I don't think so.

This gif has frames Z 312-317 at 2 seconds per frame.

[Chris Bristow]

6 hours ago, John Butler said:

Another illustration of this is the Kennedy head shot.  Z frames 312 to 317 have all the material that comes from Kennedy's head dissipate in a third of a second or less.  Is that realistic.  No, I don't think so.

This gif has frames Z 312-317 at 2 seconds per frame.

The quick dissipation of the head shot has always seemed weird to me and people have varying opinions about it. In frames 294/295 the limo moves forward at about 9mph(About 8 inches). Jackie's head moves about 2 inches or 2mph. I have not tested that to see how feasible it is, but I would guess it is possible. The best test would be to find a 8mm home movie and look at separate frames to see how much body motion is natural from frame too frame. I have some 8mm but no viewer or projector.
 If a frame was removed between 294/295 the limo speed would double. So you can't remove frames from just one section or it will be obvious when the limo doubles its speed. you would have to remove every other frame throughout the film to keep the limo speed from jumping.  The problem is removing frames speeds up the limo by very specific amounts. Remove every other frame and the speed doubles, remove every 3rd frame and speed increases by 50%. (EXAMPLE: 30 frames at 1 ft per frame and 1 sec per frame = 30 ft in 30 sec). The limo will travel 30 feet from the first frame to the last regardless of how many frames you remove, so removing 1/3 the frames increases the limo speed by 50%.
 The takeaway is removing frames is mathematically limited to certain changes. This would pose a problem for trying to alter the limo speed smoothly unless it's slowing matched the mathematical limitations.
 The solution would be to use the matte process to separate the background and the limo to control apparent speed. But that would change the limos position on Elm relative to Z. That would cause his angle to the limos direction of travel to be wrong. It would also mean all the reflection on the trunk and some other reflections would be mismatched to the limos position on Elm. That is a lot of work and I don't know what to make of it.
 

[Chris Bristow]

8 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

I believe that for a headshot, from the South Knoll, through the windshield, through the forehead and out the back of JFK's head he would need to be sitting fairly upright. This position occurs around extant Z313 but if you struggle to accept the Jet Effect you have to consider the reason for vigorous backward motion. I am suggesting the body movement of JFK is much more to do with observable braking and almost completely unobservable acceleration than shots. Most people have experienced rapid acceleration in a powerful car or plane. It throws you backwards. I think Kellerman describes the car as 'leaping' from acceleration. If it did, that has been cut from the film. 

I consider the acceleration and braking as a possible factor in his movement. But a south knoll shot (annex parking lot by the RR tracks) would not pass through the windshield if JFK was leaned over to his left. It would have to pass just behind Greer. If JFK was sitting straight up in his original position like fr 224 then Greer and most likely Connally (Leaning back) would be in the way. That shot would pass over Greer's outboard rearview mirror.
 When I calculate those angles I consider the limo was not facing straight between the lane markers at fr 312. Frame 312 shows the limo was crooked and facing 6 degrees to the right of Elm's direction at the location of fr312. That considerably changes the possibility of shots from the south knoll and the west end of the north knoll.

[Chris Davidson]

16 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I'm not saying there wasn't a shot from the rear I'm just not sure the head movement represents that.

If some-one else can provide another clear (real life) example of a shot to the back of the head and the initial movement is anything but what is seen in the comparison link, I believe there might be an argument to be made.

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26525-unveiling-the-limo-stop/?do=findComment&comment=451068

As for the special effects debris, that's a different matter.
 

 

[Chris Davidson]

And, as you might expect, some-one shot in the forehead from the front(gentleman with baseball cap on) whose head would initially travel in the direction of the bullet.

 

[Chris Davidson]

On 12/28/2021 at 12:51 AM, Chris Bristow said:

Recently I noticed Jackie's head movement in frames 294/295 is as great as JFK's head movement from 312 to 313. The GIF below shows the movement. I have always assumed the sudden movement of JFK's head must be due to a bullet impact. The accepted notion was that much movement in one frame is abnormal and must be due to the force of a bullet, but Jackie seems to do it and she wasn't shot.
 Maybe JFK's head movement was just a physical jerk related to the wound in his throat. Of course the movement happens right when his head explodes so I might assume it is from the rear head shot, but I used to think it had to be.

Or, she could be reacting to something else:

Gif Credit to ???

[Chris Davidson]

On 12/29/2021 at 9:04 AM, Eddy Bainbridge said:

I believe that for a headshot, from the South Knoll, through the windshield, through the forehead and out the back of JFK's head he would need to be sitting fairly upright. This position occurs around extant Z313 but if you struggle to accept the Jet Effect you have to consider the reason for vigorous backward motion. I am suggesting the body movement of JFK is much more to do with observable braking and almost completely unobservable acceleration than shots. Most people have experienced rapid acceleration in a powerful car or plane. It throws you backwards. I think Kellerman describes the car as 'leaping' from acceleration. If it did, that has been cut from the film. 

If JFK was sitting upright per Landis/Hickey(not on extant film)shortly after an extant z313 graze shot from behind, it would look something like this from the South knoll. Of course, the inset isn't quite at the top of the car park area and it's not approx 5.5ft further down Elm St either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

"  He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked(NOT IN EXTANT FILM). At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head(NOT IN EXTANT FILM). The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again. Possibly four or five seconds elapsed from the time of the first report and the last.." - George Hickey Statement 23rd Nov 1963.

Chris Davidson posits that the 'First of the second two' did in fact miss. I suggest that from Hickey's viewpoint in the follow-up car he did not see the full impact;  a shot from the rear exiting from the side of the head (seen in frames of the extant film and by close-up witnesses, who are difficult to dismiss). I am also suggesting Hickey's perspective is perhaps slightly off; in that the first shot is accurately portrayed in the Rydberg drawing (impact during the president's slump). If I am right, there is a plausible trajectory for a rear shot from above( I see no plausible posited trajectories from the rear, other than above Elm Street), a low hole in the back of the head (per autopsy). The second head shot trajectory also seems plausible to me, IF JFK is sitting upright. I have not analysed the angles as Chris Bristow(above) has, but there is a pretty good analysis on a YouTube video (on another thread of Ed Forum) that I found quite convincing, that allows a South Knoll gunman to make the frontal throat shot, reload, and make the final headshot through the windshield.

To repeat my earlier post, I think a significant amount of conflicting evidence makes sense if the two rapid headshots were in fact later than extant Z313. Think of Z312 as the start of a sequence of headshot events and Z313 as the end of these events. Between these two frames we have missed the car stopping, two head shots and the car accelerating. 

If this assessment is true, what we see in the extant film (from Z313) is the headwound appear , caused by the first rear head shot, the partial spray from the rear blow-out from the second frontal head shot and the bodily reaction from JFK from the car accelerating, which flings him back. The rear blow-out is blacked out, and the great Luis Alvarez is able to analyse the extant film and confidently state the car continued at a constant speed after Z313! 

[Paul Bacon]

49 minutes ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Think of Z312 as the start of a sequence of headshot events and Z313 as the end of these events. Between these two frames we have missed the car stopping, two head shots and the car accelerating. 

Just an observation:  If this is true, then some kind of matte process must've been employed rather than simple frame removal because, otherwise, we would see some kind of background jump.

[Chris Davidson]

3 hours ago, Eddy Bainbridge said:

Chris Davidson posits that the 'First of the second two' did in fact miss.

Not exactly:

grazed: to touch lightly in passing

Grazed with an initial rear shot(head moves forward briefly-hair flies up) which caused him to subsequently straighten back up (voluntary or involuntary? - what we don't see on film) then gets nailed with the next shot. 

I'm not saying that next shot necessarily had to come from the South knoll(it's more likely than the north knoll-imo), merely provided a reasonable view/angle for it.

Added on Edit: There is still the Bronson flash at approx 5.5ft farther down which would coincide more with crossfire from the south knoll.

 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Chris Davidson

[Chris Bristow]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:00 PM, Chris Davidson said:

Or, she could be reacting to something else:

Gif Credit to ???

I don't know what he or she was really reacting to. All I can do is guess and read others opinions and consider the possibilities. But in the end I can't be sure what's real or not in the Z film. So I have no hard opinion on who got hit exactly when.

[Benjamin Cole]

On 12/29/2021 at 3:22 AM, Micah Mileto said:

Nope, can't be it. See the stabalized Zapruder film. https://youtu.be/Sqk3sdfXFkc

Excellent version of the Z film. 

Note that Governor John Connally does a near 180-degree turn in his seat after JFK had received his neck-throat shot. 

I suspect it is this reaction of JBC that was the primary reason the Z film was suppressed. Obviously, JBC was not struck by the same bullet that passed through JFK's neck. JBC is looking to see what happened. 

JBC is then struck around Z-295, or about one second before Z-313, and the headshot(s) to JFK. 

Which rules out a lone gunman, armed with a single-shot bolt action rifle, as the perp of the JFKA. 

 

[Chris Bristow]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Excellent version of the Z film. 

Note that Governor John Connally does a near 180-degree turn in his seat after JFK had received his neck-throat shot. 

I suspect it is this reaction of JBC that was the primary reason the Z film was suppressed. Obviously, JBC was not struck by the same bullet that passed through JFK's neck. JBC is looking to see what happened. 

JBC is then struck around Z-295, or about one second before Z-313, and the headshot(s) to JFK. 

Which rules out a lone gunman, armed with a single-shot bolt action rifle, as the perp of the JFKA. 

 

I have never been able to accept that Connally was hit by the Magic Bullet because of his turning around to his right and continuing to hold on to his hat. I'm sure a lot of people hold that opinion. He said he twisted as far as he could to see Kennedy. So he twisted as far as he could to the right after losing four inches of rib on his right side? And how does he hold onto his hat after the radius bone has a compound fracture and at least part of the tendon to his thumb is severed. Not to mention he articulates his wrist downward  as he tries to squeeze his hat between himself and the door as he turns. It seems too Farfetch'd. And Doctor Shaw felt the wound was too serious for a delayed reaction like that

But if Connally was shot around or after frame 290 how do we Square the trajectory through his body against the location of the shooter. The trajectory led back to one of those Towers or roof of the building on the Southeast corner of Main and Houston. The red brick building. Is that the Old Courthouse? Never heard of a theory that put a shooter there but that's where they would have to be.

[Benjamin Cole]

4 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

I have never been able to accept that Connally was hit by the Magic Bullet because of his turning around to his right and continuing to hold on to his hat. I'm sure a lot of people hold that opinion. He said he twisted as far as he could to see Kennedy. So he twisted as far as he could to the right after losing four inches of rib on his right side? And how does he hold onto his hat after the radius bone has a compound fracture and at least part of the tendon to his thumb is severed. Not to mention he articulates his wrist downward  as he tries to squeeze his hat between himself and the door as he turns. It seems too Farfetch'd. And Doctor Shaw felt the wound was too serious for a delayed reaction like that

But if Connally was shot around or after frame 290 how do we Square the trajectory through his body against the location of the shooter. The trajectory led back to one of those Towers or roof of the building on the Southeast corner of Main and Houston. The red brick building. Is that the Old Courthouse? Never heard of a theory that put a shooter there but that's where they would have to be.

Chris B.--

Thanks for your comments. Interesting question. 

One problem is that when JBC is struck (Z-295 to Z-300), his torso is hidden from the Z-camera's view, below the door of the limo. You can see JBC's head, and then he opens his mouth in pain.  He then crumples into his wife's lap. So, I am not sure of the attitude of JBC's torso at the time of the bullet-strike. 

BTW, an additional bit of info, from JBC in front of the HSCA:  "Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"

 

---30---

So, JBC recalls being immediately incapacitated after being struck. Not turning around and looking. 

But, to repeat, I am not sure how to tell where the JBC bullet came from, other than we know it struck JBC in the back. JBC said he thought the gunshot sound was from the TBSD direction. I am open to two guns in the TBSD, possibly one with a silencer. But hey, the Dal-Tex building is possible too. 

Another oddity is the bullet strike through the dorsal side, or wristwatch side, of JBC's wrist. JBC's surgeon thought that could have been another separate bullet strike.  Try holding the dorsal side of your wrist to your chest. Normal position is dorsal side out from chest. 

JBC did say bullets were entering the cab of the limo as if from automatic weapons fire. 

The lone gunman story...just does not hold water.