Jean Rene Souetre expelled from the US 18hrs after JFKA?!

[Roger Odisio]

1 minute ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Souetre used the alias Roux, as noted by French authorities in communication with US agencies, so I don't understand  the argument that because Roux was 5'8" tall. I could see that he would not be "identical" with Souetre, who was 6'1".

Thanks for the Fensterwald stuff, Steve.

His summary of his Paris trip in 1982 seems pretty informative about some of the basics.  Louis Assemat-Tessandier's Feb 19, 1964 article in the Cote-Basque Soir newspaper was based on a Jan 20-21 meeting in an apartment in Montreal with a drunken Frenchmen who claimed to have been in Dallas at the time of the JFKA and been deported 18 hours after the murder.  Louis apparently thinks that person was Roux, but he described him as tall, tanned and handsome. Roux is 5'8".  Souetre 6'1". Whoever that man was, he kept calling Louis back, probably to find out what he told the journalist in a drunken stupor.  But Louis found the man menacing, was afraid, and avoided him.  When authorities later tracked down Roux, he said he had indeed been in the Dallas area at the time but denied saying anything of the sort in Louis' article.  Roux said he had talked to Louis (a bit confusing, about what?) but only by telephone. 

After the article, Louis was interviewed by Police Intelligence in Bayone, who relayed the information on Feb 29, 1964 to Intelligence in Paris (presumably the Legal Attache who started an investigation because of DeGaulle's scheduled March 15 trip to Mexico). Apparently that was the first time Louis had named Roux, but French intelligence knew Souetre well including his aliases, so they weren't thrown of by that.  They focused on Souetre , the known enemy of DeGaulle, in their March 5, 1964 request to the New York office of the FBI for more information.

The French stonewalled Fensterwald when he wanted to see the details of their investigation in '64.  The CIA, FBI, and INS stonewalled the French when they asked about Souetre in '64.  A March 13, '64 memo, 2 days before the DeGaulle trip, from the Paris LA  cancelled the Souetre investigation.

It's very likely that US intelligence wanted the French to drop their Souetre investigation (hence the stonewalling), and, getting the message, the French did their best CIA impression with Fensterwald in 1982. The closing of the case without resolving Souetre's whereabouts provides nothing to disprove the possibility that Souetre was in Dallas for the murder.

 

[Leslie Sharp]

4 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Thanks for the Fensterwald stuff, Steve.

His summary of his Paris trip in 1982 seems pretty informative about some of the basics.  Louis Assemat-Tessandier's Feb 19, 1964 article in the Cote-Basque Soir newspaper was based on a Jan 20-21 meeting in an apartment in Montreal with a drunken Frenchmen who claimed to have been in Dallas at the time of the JFKA and been deported 18 hours after the murder.  Louis apparently thinks that person was Roux, but he described him as tall, tanned and handsome. Roux is 5'8".  Souetre 6'1". Whoever that man was, he kept calling Louis back, probably to find out what he told the journalist in a drunken stupor.  But Louis found the man menacing, was afraid, and avoided him.  When authorities later tracked down Roux, he said he had indeed been in the Dallas area at the time but denied saying anything of the sort in Louis' article.  Roux said he had talked to Louis (a bit confusing, about what?) but only by telephone. 

After the article, Louis was interviewed by Police Intelligence in Bayone, who relayed the information on Feb 29, 1964 to Intelligence in Paris (presumably the Legal Attache who started an investigation because of DeGaulle's scheduled March 15 trip to Mexico). Apparently that was the first time Louis had named Roux, but French intelligence knew Souetre well including his aliases, so they weren't thrown of by that.  They focused on Souetre , the known enemy of DeGaulle, in their March 5, 1964 request to the New York office of the FBI for more information.

The French stonewalled Fensterwald when he wanted to see the details of their investigation in '64.  The CIA, FBI, and INS stonewalled the French when they asked about Souetre in '64.  A March 13, '64 memo, 2 days before the DeGaulle trip, from the Paris LA  cancelled the Souetre investigation.

It's very likely that US intelligence wanted the French to drop their Souetre investigation (hence the stonewalling), and, getting the message, the French did their best CIA impression with Fensterwald in 1982. The closing of the case without resolving Souetre's whereabouts provides nothing to disprove the possibility that Souetre was in Dallas for the murder.

 

Roger, I'm curious if you've seen evidence of INS direct involvement in the stonewalling in 1964, or are you referring to FBI/CIA documents that indicate INS had been consulted?

Where are the INS records of the 11/22 detention and expulsion? 

[Roger Odisio]

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Roger, I'm curious if you've seen evidence of INS direct involvement in the stonewalling in 1964, or are you referring to FBI/CIA documents that indicate INS had been consulted?

Where are the INS records of the 11/22 detention and expulsion? 

Civil Action No.80-1056, Feb, 28,1983 https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/559/1053/1969848/

Shaw/Fensterwald asked for all records the INS had Souetre.  No records were found and in a summary judgement the court said the INS's search met the test of reasonableness.

The CIA had its own planes. If I remember correctly didn't you name a pilot (in Coup in Dallas?) you think was hired to fly Souetre out of the country?

In this case it may not be accurate to claim the INS was stonewalling. 

[Leslie Sharp]

57 minutes ago, Roger Odisio said:

Civil Action No.80-1056, Feb, 28,1983 https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp/559/1053/1969848/

Shaw/Fensterwald asked for all records the INS had Souetre.  No records were found and in a summary judgement the court said the INS's search met the test of reasonableness.

The CIA had its own planes. If I remember correctly didn't you name a pilot (in Coup in Dallas?) you think was hired to fly Souetre out of the country?

In this case it may not be accurate to claim the INS was stonewalling. 

Roger, Gary reiterated yesterday, To my knowledge we have only my memos from my telephone conversations. If there were  any official reports, l have not seen them. 

And yes, Pierre Lafitte identified the pilot as Silverthorne . . . 

 From Coup in Dallas . . . 

            ‘ . . . As the FBI agents that spoke with [Dr.] Alderson remarked, this plane, part of a CIA proprietary, was technically a “government plane.” According to [Pierre] Lafitte, the private plane that carried Souetre from Dallas was piloted by Joseph Silverthorne.

The Pilot [on November 15, 1963, Pierre Lafitte noted in his datebook the following:]

/Nov 22/

Willoughby backup

team [the word team has a strike through] squad- tech

building-- phone booth/bridge

O says turn them*

Silverthorne-

Ft. Worth

-Airport

     Mexico    

—Lafitte datebook, November 15 

Silverthorne, a long-mysterious name that also appears in William Harvey’s infamous, handwritten QJ/WIN notes, is Joseph “Joe” Silverthorne, a former member of the OSS and a CIA asset, who had the wide reputation of being an incredibly daring bush and cargo pilot, and an occasional and trusted assassin. Silverthorne flew over 250 flights for United Fruit Co. in the 1950s. He traveled “for a certain federal agency” to “countless countries” for “reasons best left unsaid.” He said: “Bill Harvey was my friend; I never made fun of him. You don’t do that with friends.” (Albarelli’s Florida interview with Silverthorne.) 

*we have laterally considered the possibility this reads "O says turn at Elm", an update that may appear in the softcover edition of Coup once the examiner makes a final call.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Chuck Schwartz]

And O stands for Otto Skorenzy ( I  believe) , who got the schematics for Dealey Plaza delivered to him in Madrid, by Thomas Eli Davis, if I understand the " Coup in Dallas" correctly.

[Leslie Sharp]

9 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

And O stands for Otto Skorenzy ( I  believe) , who got the schematics for Dealey Plaza delivered to him in Madrid, by Thomas Eli Davis, if I understand the " Coup in Dallas" correctly.

That's right, Chuck. Based on the Davis's timeline, and considered in context of surrounding entries in Lafitte's datebook we deduced that the Davis couple traveled to Madrid to meet arms dealer Victor Oswald and his buddy Otto Skorzeny. They carried with them schematics of Dealey.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Leslie Sharp]

On 3/3/2023 at 7:59 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Here are the notes I have with respect to the idea that Jean-Rene Souetre me with American authorities both in Madrid in the April-May, 1963 timeframe, and in Lisbon, Portugal in May, 1963. In Lisbon, I think he met with the American Ambassador, Admiral George Whelan Anderson, Jr,

With respect to Madrid:

A Pssible French Connection

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6060#relPageId=15&search=%22howard_hunt%22+AND+SPAIN

pp, 15-16

Footnote number 19 in A Possible French Connection:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6060&search=%22howard_hunt%22+AND+SPAIN#relPageId=44&tab=page

 

Footnote# 19 Page 44

^19. Aux Ordres du SAC, by Gilbert Lecavlier, 1982

(In the orders of, or under the orders of SAC)

 

Forum member Chuck Scwartz wrote in this thread on page 1:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/22775-jean-rene-souetre-aka-robin-hood/

“Dick Russell wrote in "The Man Who Knew Too Much":

• OAS had contact in New Orleans with anti-Castro group

• In March-April 1963, Souetre met with Howard Hunt (of Watergate and Bay of Pigs infamy) in Madrid.”.

I was looking at William Reymond’s FK, autopsie d'un crime d'Etat., and in his Endnotes, he wrote that he wanted to give special thanks to Gilbert Lecavalier for all his help in preparing the sections on Souerte and Mertz, etc.

 

SUMMARY OF PARIS TRIP - NOVEMBER 13-22, 1982

Fensterwald Sunnary of Paris Trip, 1982

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Souetre%20Jean%20with%20aka%27s/Item%2011.pdf

 

Page 3

Both ____ and Le Cavelier suggested that a current visit to see Souetre
in Divonne Les Bains would be (1) dangerous; (2) unproductive (he won't talk);
and (3) probably counterproductive. We did not visit Souetre

 

Page 4

On Saturday, November 20, we had a meeting with Jean Claude Perez, M.D., ex-chief of O.R.O., the OAS intelligence organization. Dr. Perez was extremely cautious of us (including Le Cavelier), had a tendency to lapse into OAS dialetics and old war stories, but did let slip a few pertinent items:

 

5. The OAS made a real effort to help via right wing U.S. Ambassador to Portugal, Admiral George Whelan Anderson, Jr.. They though Anderson would understand "de Gaulle's true nature, i.e., pro-communism"; even Anderson could not swallow this;

 

Pages 4-5

Attached as Appendix C is Dr. Farrell's summary of our conversation with Perez.

We had a number of long private conversations with Le Cavelier, and the investigation in France will continue full steam.

 

Appendix C Dr. Farrell's summary of our conversation with Perez.

Page 22

Q: Did you know of any O.A.S. members training Anti castro gerrillas
there?
A: No.
Gilbert Lecalevier breaks in, tells him that, yes there were some.

 

Page 23

Q: Does the name Espaillot mean anything to you?
A: Not a thing.
Q: How about Bannister?
A: Hmmmmm. Seems to me I once met a Bannister, tall, older,said to be a former F.B.I. man. Met him in Madrid.
Q: What was his relation to the O.A.S.?
A: Just met him. You must not assume from meeting that contactand support were the same thing. I see here in your realm; that you claim we were financed by Nagy on account of a meeting. False.We were constantly meeting with people in an attempt to recruit support. It was rarely forthcoming. We tried, for example, through the goddaughter of the commander of Spanish-based American Forces, William Donovaz5to make contact with the U.S.

Q: The Donovan, commander of the wartime O.S.S.? That one?
A: Yes. We also tried to make indirect contacts through friends and acquaintances with Admiral Anderson (was that the name?) the U.,5.ambassador. We could never make contact. Some of these high-ranking military men ware noted for right-wing positions. We thought we would get a sympathetic hearing. We could never get an interview. “

 

I got to wondering how much of the information we have on Souetre has come from Lecavalier. Lecavalier was SAC. SAC and the OAS hated each other. He wrote in his book that "whereas the main effort of SAC between 1958 and 1960 was against the FLN (the pro-independence Algerian rebels), between 1961 and 1967, it was against the OAS"

 

Concerning the meeting in Lisbon, Portugal:

On Page 8 of this thread,

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27759-jean-rene-souetre-expelled-from-the-us-18hrs-after-jfka/page/8/

I included a memo from the Deputy Director of Plans to the

Deputy Director for Coordination

Bureau of Intelligence and Research

Department of State

In 1963, the Deputy Director of Plans for the CIA was Richard Helms

In that memo, Helms summarizes the meeting in Lisbon, Portugal between Jean-Rene Souetre and Captain Gueria. I believe that Helms was actually referring to Yves Guerin-Serac.

 

The last line in that memo reads:

On page 9 of this Forum thread, I included the memo of June 25^th .

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27759-jean-rene-souetre-expelled-from-the-us-18hrs-after-jfka/page/9/

FBI - HSCA Subject File: Jean Souetre

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=83405#relPageId=1

Document# 11

Look at the Report number in the top right hand corner of this June 25^th Report

 

There was something else in that memo from Helms to the Department of State that caught my eye:

 

FBI - HSCA Subject File: Jean Souetre

https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1434

Document# 7

Notice the date  (Had the CIA decided to use him after all? And was this why the CIA told the FBI and French Intelligence to stop all investigations of Jean-Rene Souetre?)

 

Fensterwald Sunnary of Paris Trip, 1982

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Souetre%20Jean%20with%20aka%27s/Item%2011.pdf

 

Page 18

APPENDix B
DRAFT OF ARTICLE ON L'AFFAIRE KENNEDY
The French Government is repressing records that might well solve the Affaire Kennedy. Equally interesting, it appears to be hiding the documents at the behest of the American CIA, which has blunted all investigations – official and otherwise -- for the past nineteen years.

“The American investigation ended a few days later; as suddenly as it began -- and without reaching any conclusions.”

 

Was the CIA using Souetre as an asset, that is why his records have not been released all these years?

Steve Thomas

 

Steve, the March 13, 1964 cablegram has been released unredacted, has it not?

[Chuck Schwartz]

Leslie, I found it interesting that Thomas Eli Davis died an unnatural death - in 1973 while trying to commit  a theft, he accidently burned himself to dealth.  And, he placed an ad  in the Los Angeles Times in June 1963 for men who had military experience .

[Leslie Sharp]

10 hours ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

Leslie, I found it interesting that Thomas Eli Davis died an unnatural death - in 1973 while trying to commit  a theft, he accidently burned himself to dealth.  And, he placed an ad  in the Los Angeles Times in June 1963 for men who had military experience .

As did we, Chuck.  If you have the book, you know the coincidence of the location of his death and who owned that gravel facility and how that detail oddly connects to Sylvia Odio.  Granted, D-FW and the surrounding region (to include Bridgeport) was a "small world" in 1963, but the odds Davis would die at a TxI operation owned by the Rogers family who took Odio under their wing seem pretty high.

[Ron Bulman]

1 hour ago, Leslie Sharp said:

As did we, Chuck.  If you have the book, you know the coincidence of the location of his death and who owned that gravel facility and how that detail oddly connects to Sylvia Odio.  Granted, D-FW and the surrounding region (to include Bridgeport) was a "small world" in 1963, but the odds Davis would die at a TxI operation owned by the Rogers family who took Odio under their wing seem pretty high.

Not to digress too much from this interesting and important thread.  The "small world" in 1963 made me think back.  I don't really remember the roadways much in 1963.  Irving boulevard yes.  183 through Hurst by Bell Helicopter where dad worked and Euless to Irving, where grandmother and grandad lived.

Somewhere in the mid 60's they built the turnpike from Fort Worth through Arlington, now I-30 to Dallas.  Dad took mother and I for a ride on the two lanes each way divided toll road with no stop lights to celebrate.  Then in 1967 or 68 they started building Airport Freeway right behind our 14 acres, at 11-12 I rode my horse under the now Bedford road overpass.  Now Hwy 121, with express lanes, now 6 lanes wide at points.  Four of them often backed up.  I hate driving in the metromess anymore.  It's dangerous.  Sorry to ramble here.  I guess it does relate to the difference in escape routes then and now.  

If Soutre or whoever might have been flown out of Fort Worth, there was no freeway to get there from Dealy Plaza in 1963.

Edited March 6, 2023 by Ron Bulman

[Chuck Schwartz]

Leslie, when Tracy Barnes left the CIA , he went to work at Yale, which is about a half hour to hour ride from Bridgeport, Ct.- probably does not mean much in the grand scheme.

[Leslie Sharp]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:15 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Not to digress too much from this interesting and important thread.  The "small world" in 1963 made me think back.  I don't really remember the roadways much in 1963.  Irving boulevard yes.  183 through Hurst by Bell Helicopter where dad worked and Euless to Irving, where grandmother and grandad lived.

Somewhere in the mid 60's they built the turnpike from Fort Worth through Arlington, now I-30 to Dallas.  Dad took mother and I for a ride on the two lanes each way divided toll road with no stop lights to celebrate.  Then in 1967 or 68 they started building Airport Freeway right behind our 14 acres, at 11-12 I rode my horse under the now Bedford road overpass.  Now Hwy 121, with express lanes, now 6 lanes wide at points.  Four of them often backed up.  I hate driving in the metromess anymore.  It's dangerous.  Sorry to ramble here.  I guess it does relate to the difference in escape routes then and now.  

If Soutre or whoever might have been flown out of Fort Worth, there was no freeway to get there from Dealy Plaza in 1963.

Ron, I remember the turnpike as well. It's surreal to return every few years and navigate in and out of D-FW. You must remember the groundbreaking ceremony?

Lafitte indicates Silverthorne flew Souetre out of  "Red" - presumably Redbird - airport, south of Dealey / downtown Dallas, not Fort Worth.

[Leslie Sharp]

On 3/8/2023 at 6:45 AM, Chuck Schwartz said:

Leslie, when Tracy Barnes left the CIA , he went to work at Yale, which is about a half hour to hour ride from Bridgeport, Ct.- probably does not mean much in the grand scheme.

I hadn't thought about that, Chuck. 

Bridgeport holds a lot of secrets of the Military Industrial Complex, and I still think Barnes is one of the most enigmatic characters of the investigation.. 

[Evan Marshall]

So while folks are focused on him, sniper #1, #2. and #3, quietly exit the US.

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:

So while folks are focused on him, sniper #1, #2. and #3, quietly exit the US.

Maybe so but who were they?