The Limo Agents

[Guest]

@Vince Palamaraseeing as you are our most esteemed SS expert, I have a question. Some early news reports suggest an SS man was injured or hurt during the JFKA. Which perhaps ties in to the pool of blood soda pop mystery near the steps by the fence. As far as you can tell, between say June 1st 63 and Nov 22nd 63, are there any SS agents featured on detail in that period, that never feature again afterwards? I know there was an agent who supposedly died weeks before the JFKA which may or may not be significant. 
Do you have any thoughts? 

[Gil Jesus]

On 5/18/2022 at 2:27 PM, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Greer was not a trained driver so i think he has to get a mulligan. natural human reaction would be to look around when heard shot and take foot off gas in process or perhaps even applied brakes. nothing sinister here. just poor reaction by a untrained driver.

Funny, he didn't take his foot off the gas the FIRST time he turned around to look back.

So you're saying that they take an agent untrained in driving and let him drive Kennedy around for almost three years ?

Greer had a LOT of driving experience.

Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of your duty has involved driving the President's car?
Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time you know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned to him, to drive him. ( 2 H 113 )

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Vince Palamara]

57 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

You're right. I stand corrected.

No problem

[Vince Palamara]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

@Vince Palamaraseeing as you are our most esteemed SS expert, I have a question. Some early news reports suggest an SS man was injured or hurt during the JFKA. Which perhaps ties in to the pool of blood soda pop mystery near the steps by the fence. As far as you can tell, between say June 1st 63 and Nov 22nd 63, are there any SS agents featured on detail in that period, that never feature again afterwards? I know there was an agent who supposedly died weeks before the JFKA which may or may not be significant. 
Do you have any thoughts? 

The agent you are referring to at the end:

Oh, yes--I am much aware of these reports. Lengthy excerpt from my first book SURVIVOR'S GUILT:

Secret Service/PRS employee James K. “Jack” Fox: Information obtained by the late agent’s sole confidante, researcher/disc jockey Mark Crouch. Crouch provided several autopsy photos obtained by Fox to director Oliver Stone for use in the movie JFK, and to director Wolfgang Peterson for In The Line of Fire, among other projects). During interviews conducted on 1/28/92 and 9/23/92 respectively, the author obtained startling new information. First, some necessary background is needed: All three major television networks,ABC, NBC, & CBS, reported that, “A Secret Service agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed” on 11/22/63. Eddie Barker, of CBS affiliate KRLD-TV, noted, “The word is that the President was killed, one of his agents is dead, and Governor Connally was wounded.” ABC News in Washington reported, “A Secret Service agent apparently was shot by one of the assassin’s bullets.” ABC’s Bill Lord stated, “ [I] did confirm the death of the secret service agent … one of the Secret Service agents was killed … Secret Service agents usually walk right beside the car,” And that, “One of the Secret Service agents traveling with the President was killed today.” The Associated Press (AP) was quoted on WFAA (ABC):”A Secret Service agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed some distance from where the President was shot.” At 12:45 p.m. CST, KRLD-TV reported that a Secret Service agent had been killed along with the President. At 1:23 p.m., CST, CBS’s Walter Cronkite reported, “A Secret Service man was also killed in the fusillade of shots.” 219 Clues To The Contingency Seth Kantor, a reporter for Scripps-Howard, would write in his notebook, which was published by the Warren Commission “They even have to die in secret.”26 At 2:14 p.m., the AP again made note: “A Secret Service Agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed today.” At 2:40 p.m., The Dallas Police radio, channel two, also carried the story: “One of the Secret Service men on the field—Elm and Houston, said that it came over his Teletype that one of the Secret Service men had been killed.”27 The Dallas Times Herald, dateline November 22, 1963, added, “From the Secret Service office in Dallas—a spokesman could neither confirm or deny the report: ‘All I’ve heard is the same reports you’ve heard’.” However, at 3:40 p.m. Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Robert A. Wallace reported, “No Secret Service man was injured in the attack on President Kennedy,” a denial of sorts, but it does not indicate if one was killed, or if there was violence at another location. Still, these stories could have supplied the Secret Service with the much-needed jurisdiction to take over and steal the body of JFK from the Dallas authorities, which in fact is what they did. Remember, while the murder of the President was not a federal crime in 1963, the murder of a Secret Service agent was.28 Perhaps this explains the proliferation of the tale of the “dead” agent on 11/22/63. However, this author learned from Crouch that Agent Fox stated that the story was true! According to Crouch, Fox29 was working in the Executive Office Building, where the PRS was headquartered, on 11/22/63, when he was asked by SAIC of PRS Robert Bouck to ready a detail of four to six agents to assist in retrieving the body and casket of the unnamed Secret Service agent. Fox told Crouch, “We lost a man that day – our man,” and qualified his remarks by stating that he was not referring to JFK.30 And though she had heard the news reports that the President’s limousine raced to Parkland Hospital after the shooting, Mrs. Bill Greer thought for several hours that her husband had perished that day! Since she knew that Greer was the driver of JFK’s car, this appears to be a strange admission.31 Interestingly, journalist Seth Kantor reported, “A Western Union man who had been with us since we came down from Andrews Air 220 Survivor’s Guilt Force Base came into the [Parkland Hospital] office. A nurse asked him about a report that a Secret Service agent had been killed out on the street. He said that it was true. This was one of the immediate rumors, which sprung up. It took several days for this particular rumor not to be believed in Dallas itself (Fellow in Jaggars-ChilesStovall who got it from a friend who got it from a postman supposed to have been at the death scene that the shot and bleeding SS man was in on the plot to kill the President.)” [emphasis added]32 Jaggars-Chiles-Stoval employed Lee Harvey Oswald from 10/12/62 until 4/6/63. This company did photographic work for the U-2 spy program, and Oswald’s starting date of employment coincided with the Cuban Missile Crisis.33 Nurse Bertha Lozano wrote in her report that, in addition to JFK and Connally, “A technician came to the desk and asked me to expect a private patient who was bleeding … Blood technicians came to ask me who ‘Mr. X’ was who did not have an E.R. number. Hematology also came with the same problem and was told the same thing.”34 Jerry Coley of the Dallas Morning News, his friend Charles Mulkey, Dallas Morning News photographer Jim Hood, and WFAA cameraman Malcolm Couch saw a significant pool of blood between the Texas School Book Depository and the pergola on the knoll.35 Author Harrison Livingstone reported in his 2000 online book, Stunning New Evidence, that Jim Pearsu of the Secret Service believed there was indeed a dead agent. Regarding the “postman” and other information noted by reporter Kantor, The 1/22/77 issue of The Continuing Inquiry journal contains an article written by Penn Jones and Gary Shaw regarding the dead agent incident as reported in a letter sent to Jim Garrison during the Clay Shaw trial: “A Mr. Robertson, Assistant Director of the Dallas or Fort Worth Secret Service office, confided to [friend of writer who requested anonymity] in 1963 that a plot to kill President Kennedy was planned and he did not want any part of it. On November 22, 1963, my friend was in the office of Mr. Robertson when all phones began to ring, about the time Kennedy was arriving at Carswell Air Force Base [in Fort Worth], Mr. Robertson then said, ‘Well, this is it’ and left the office. Since that time Mr. Robertson’s family of seven children and wife have not seen or heard from him, yet his paychecks continue to be mailed to his home. Our 1965 investigation lead us to believe Robertson was 221 Clues To The Contingency in Dallas but was posing as a postal inspector, but it was reported to us that he had left Dallas. We also learned from newsmen that something unusual did happen on Harwood [street] shortly before the turn to Main Street. No one wanted credit for this, but we were told by reliable newsmen that a man jumped in front of Kennedy’s car on Harwood shouting, ‘Stop, I must tell you.’ The man, according to their report, was promptly wrestled to the ground and hustled away.” [emphasis added] To the author’s great surprise, there are three reports that seem to corroborate the above article, in conjunction with the overlooked Kantor report: The first is the actual letter sent to Garrison from an “Amy Britvar” dated 2/21/68 and originating from Turtle Creek Blvd. in Dallas, Texas.36 An internet people-search for Britvar drew a blank, although there are other Britvars in Texas. The second is a Treasury Department (U.S. Customs Service) document, dated 1/17/80, from Joseph G. Forrester, U.S. Customs, to Attorney General Benjamin R. Civiletti.37 The letter reads in part, “My interest in the Kennedy murder started in 1966 when I met an Air Force Master Sergeant at St. Albans Naval Hospital, Queens, New York. This sergeant, an elderly man, was suffering from terminal cancer. He stated that on November 22,1963 he was attached to Air Force One as an electronics technician. He further stated that after the President was shot a message was received over a military frequency that multiple assassins had attacked the President … a Secret Service agent, Mr. Robertson, stationed in the Dallas-Fort Worth area disappeared on November 22, 1963 yet his family still receives his paychecks. The disappearance of an individual is not unusual except that it has been said that Mr. Robertson became aware of an assassins plot against the president. An assassin plot had been unearthed in Chicago a short time before President Kennedy’s Dallas trip. Please do not misconstrue this letter. I am not a crank; but I am sincerely interested in this crucial investigation. I am willing to join an investigative team and if that is not possible, will make myself available for an interview by investigative officers.” The third is a lengthy memorandum written by Vince Salandria, dated 1/31/67, regarding an interview with Rita Rollins, a Navy nurse with an interesting story to tell. The crucial part reads, “The name of the person in Dallas … is Inez Robertson. Chuck Robertson, her husband, works at the post office … Inez Robertson, actually 222 Survivor’s Guilt saw them [men with guns] make a breakdown of the rifles. This tall man with long grey or white hair [-] he was in the station wagon. There is a luggage rack on the station wagon. It was a Rambler station wagon. This fellow with the mixed grey hair carried them [the armed men] to the airport … This tall man had been around Dallas the day before the assassination … This episode has caused friction between Chuck Robertson and Inez Robertson. He is not in Dallas now.”3

Edited May 20, 2022 by Vince Palamara
ADDING PHOTO

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

The agent you are referring to at the end:

Oh, yes--I am much aware of these reports. Lengthy excerpt from my first book SURVIVOR'S GUILT:

Secret Service/PRS employee James K. “Jack” Fox: Information obtained by the late agent’s sole confidante, researcher/disc jockey Mark Crouch. Crouch provided several autopsy photos obtained by Fox to director Oliver Stone for use in the movie JFK, and to director Wolfgang Peterson for In The Line of Fire, among other projects). During interviews conducted on 1/28/92 and 9/23/92 respectively, the author obtained startling new information. First, some necessary background is needed: All three major television networks,ABC, NBC, & CBS, reported that, “A Secret Service agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed” on 11/22/63. Eddie Barker, of CBS affiliate KRLD-TV, noted, “The word is that the President was killed, one of his agents is dead, and Governor Connally was wounded.” ABC News in Washington reported, “A Secret Service agent apparently was shot by one of the assassin’s bullets.” ABC’s Bill Lord stated, “ [I] did confirm the death of the secret service agent … one of the Secret Service agents was killed … Secret Service agents usually walk right beside the car,” And that, “One of the Secret Service agents traveling with the President was killed today.” The Associated Press (AP) was quoted on WFAA (ABC):”A Secret Service agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed some distance from where the President was shot.” At 12:45 p.m. CST, KRLD-TV reported that a Secret Service agent had been killed along with the President. At 1:23 p.m., CST, CBS’s Walter Cronkite reported, “A Secret Service man was also killed in the fusillade of shots.” 219 Clues To The Contingency Seth Kantor, a reporter for Scripps-Howard, would write in his notebook, which was published by the Warren Commission “They even have to die in secret.”26 At 2:14 p.m., the AP again made note: “A Secret Service Agent and a Dallas policeman were shot and killed today.” At 2:40 p.m., The Dallas Police radio, channel two, also carried the story: “One of the Secret Service men on the field—Elm and Houston, said that it came over his Teletype that one of the Secret Service men had been killed.”27 The Dallas Times Herald, dateline November 22, 1963, added, “From the Secret Service office in Dallas—a spokesman could neither confirm or deny the report: ‘All I’ve heard is the same reports you’ve heard’.” However, at 3:40 p.m. Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Robert A. Wallace reported, “No Secret Service man was injured in the attack on President Kennedy,” a denial of sorts, but it does not indicate if one was killed, or if there was violence at another location. Still, these stories could have supplied the Secret Service with the much-needed jurisdiction to take over and steal the body of JFK from the Dallas authorities, which in fact is what they did. Remember, while the murder of the President was not a federal crime in 1963, the murder of a Secret Service agent was.28 Perhaps this explains the proliferation of the tale of the “dead” agent on 11/22/63. However, this author learned from Crouch that Agent Fox stated that the story was true! According to Crouch, Fox29 was working in the Executive Office Building, where the PRS was headquartered, on 11/22/63, when he was asked by SAIC of PRS Robert Bouck to ready a detail of four to six agents to assist in retrieving the body and casket of the unnamed Secret Service agent. Fox told Crouch, “We lost a man that day – our man,” and qualified his remarks by stating that he was not referring to JFK.30 And though she had heard the news reports that the President’s limousine raced to Parkland Hospital after the shooting, Mrs. Bill Greer thought for several hours that her husband had perished that day! Since she knew that Greer was the driver of JFK’s car, this appears to be a strange admission.31 Interestingly, journalist Seth Kantor reported, “A Western Union man who had been with us since we came down from Andrews Air 220 Survivor’s Guilt Force Base came into the [Parkland Hospital] office. A nurse asked him about a report that a Secret Service agent had been killed out on the street. He said that it was true. This was one of the immediate rumors, which sprung up. It took several days for this particular rumor not to be believed in Dallas itself (Fellow in Jaggars-ChilesStovall who got it from a friend who got it from a postman supposed to have been at the death scene that the shot and bleeding SS man was in on the plot to kill the President.)” [emphasis added]32 Jaggars-Chiles-Stoval employed Lee Harvey Oswald from 10/12/62 until 4/6/63. This company did photographic work for the U-2 spy program, and Oswald’s starting date of employment coincided with the Cuban Missile Crisis.33 Nurse Bertha Lozano wrote in her report that, in addition to JFK and Connally, “A technician came to the desk and asked me to expect a private patient who was bleeding … Blood technicians came to ask me who ‘Mr. X’ was who did not have an E.R. number. Hematology also came with the same problem and was told the same thing.”34 Jerry Coley of the Dallas Morning News, his friend Charles Mulkey, Dallas Morning News photographer Jim Hood, and WFAA cameraman Malcolm Couch saw a significant pool of blood between the Texas School Book Depository and the pergola on the knoll.35 Author Harrison Livingstone reported in his 2000 online book, Stunning New Evidence, that Jim Pearsu of the Secret Service believed there was indeed a dead agent. Regarding the “postman” and other information noted by reporter Kantor, The 1/22/77 issue of The Continuing Inquiry journal contains an article written by Penn Jones and Gary Shaw regarding the dead agent incident as reported in a letter sent to Jim Garrison during the Clay Shaw trial: “A Mr. Robertson, Assistant Director of the Dallas or Fort Worth Secret Service office, confided to [friend of writer who requested anonymity] in 1963 that a plot to kill President Kennedy was planned and he did not want any part of it. On November 22, 1963, my friend was in the office of Mr. Robertson when all phones began to ring, about the time Kennedy was arriving at Carswell Air Force Base [in Fort Worth], Mr. Robertson then said, ‘Well, this is it’ and left the office. Since that time Mr. Robertson’s family of seven children and wife have not seen or heard from him, yet his paychecks continue to be mailed to his home. Our 1965 investigation lead us to believe Robertson was 221 Clues To The Contingency in Dallas but was posing as a postal inspector, but it was reported to us that he had left Dallas. We also learned from newsmen that something unusual did happen on Harwood [street] shortly before the turn to Main Street. No one wanted credit for this, but we were told by reliable newsmen that a man jumped in front of Kennedy’s car on Harwood shouting, ‘Stop, I must tell you.’ The man, according to their report, was promptly wrestled to the ground and hustled away.” [emphasis added] To the author’s great surprise, there are three reports that seem to corroborate the above article, in conjunction with the overlooked Kantor report: The first is the actual letter sent to Garrison from an “Amy Britvar” dated 2/21/68 and originating from Turtle Creek Blvd. in Dallas, Texas.36 An internet people-search for Britvar drew a blank, although there are other Britvars in Texas. The second is a Treasury Department (U.S. Customs Service) document, dated 1/17/80, from Joseph G. Forrester, U.S. Customs, to Attorney General Benjamin R. Civiletti.37 The letter reads in part, “My interest in the Kennedy murder started in 1966 when I met an Air Force Master Sergeant at St. Albans Naval Hospital, Queens, New York. This sergeant, an elderly man, was suffering from terminal cancer. He stated that on November 22,1963 he was attached to Air Force One as an electronics technician. He further stated that after the President was shot a message was received over a military frequency that multiple assassins had attacked the President … a Secret Service agent, Mr. Robertson, stationed in the Dallas-Fort Worth area disappeared on November 22, 1963 yet his family still receives his paychecks. The disappearance of an individual is not unusual except that it has been said that Mr. Robertson became aware of an assassins plot against the president. An assassin plot had been unearthed in Chicago a short time before President Kennedy’s Dallas trip. Please do not misconstrue this letter. I am not a crank; but I am sincerely interested in this crucial investigation. I am willing to join an investigative team and if that is not possible, will make myself available for an interview by investigative officers.” The third is a lengthy memorandum written by Vince Salandria, dated 1/31/67, regarding an interview with Rita Rollins, a Navy nurse with an interesting story to tell. The crucial part reads, “The name of the person in Dallas … is Inez Robertson. Chuck Robertson, her husband, works at the post office … Inez Robertson, actually 222 Survivor’s Guilt saw them [men with guns] make a breakdown of the rifles. This tall man with long grey or white hair [-] he was in the station wagon. There is a luggage rack on the station wagon. It was a Rambler station wagon. This fellow with the mixed grey hair carried them [the armed men] to the airport … This tall man had been around Dallas the day before the assassination … This episode has caused friction between Chuck Robertson and Inez Robertson. He is not in Dallas now.”3

Thank you, Vince. Great reply. Have you done a separate thread on this? Might be worth it. Also, did I miss something, or how does Chuck Robertson have a date of death as Feb 12th 1982? 

[Vince Palamara]

16 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Thank you, Vince. Great reply. Have you done a separate thread on this? Might be worth it. Also, did I miss something, or how does Chuck Robertson have a date of death as Feb 12th 1982? 

Well, that just goes to show that he WAS a real person (as was Inez), although he obviously didn't die (but allegedly disappeared). I am inclined to believe that this was merely a ruse to invoke federal jurisdiction, as the murder of a president was not then a federal crime (just a state---Texas---crime), but the murder of an AGENT was a federal crime. It makes you think but there has never been a solid candidate for the dead agent. I know- I looked for one.

[Ron Bulman]

Maybe your most important video, though I've not seen them all.  jmho

 

[Ron Bulman]

Does anyone remember the stripes painted on the curb, the picture of them? 

[Richard Price]

7 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Does anyone remember the stripes painted on the curb, the picture of them?

You and I seem to think alike.  I remember first hearing about them either here or on JFK Lancer.  They can be seen in the Zapruder film (fleetingly) and of course the individual frames (Costella, etc.).  There just are so few pictures taken with a view towards the south as opposed to towards the North (TSBD & grassy knoll).  I think if we can find pictures on film/photos taken in the days/weeks after the shooting, we might be able to get additional perspective.  It's just difficult to find stuff like that as anything not relevant to the supposed shooter locations are deemed irrelevant by most.  I think I will try to find some of the pictures showing the flowers, etc. that popped up in the plaza on the days afterward.  The problem with many of those are that they are focused on the lawn area and they are black and white which means you have to look very carefully if you even find one with the curbing within the picture.

[Gil Jesus]

Seymour Hersh interviewed several agents for his 1997 book, "The Dark Side of Camelot".

 

One of the agents he inteviewed was William McIntyre, who rode on the left side of the followup car during the Dallas motorcade behind Clint Hill.

McIntyre said he and some of his colleagues on the White House detail "felt abused by their service on behalf of President Kennedy."

McIntyre cited the blatant procurement of prostitutes "by the President" in the presence of the agents as a slap in the face.

"...as a sworn law enforcement officer you're asking yourself,' Well what do they think of us ? ' When that occurs, the agent would feel that his authority and his reason for being there was nullified." ( pg. 241 )

Procurement of prostitutes is a crime and these crimes were being committed right in front of the agents.

How did they know these women weren't spies ?

How did they know they weren't carrying a weapon ?

How did they know they weren't going to bite the President in the genitals ?

Having been a law professional myself I understand how it had to have been a terrible blow to their morale.

[Michael Crane]

8 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Does anyone remember the stripes painted on the curb, the picture of them? 

I brought this up on the forum in 2008 & received a PM from Gary Mack.We all know that Gary is going to toe the company line,but this is what he said.

The yellow curb markings were/are reflectors so drivers can see the curb at night (there's no sidewalk on that side of the street). Since the city of Dallas added lights to Dealey Plaza in the early 80s, the markings aren't necessary. I still see them in other parts of town, however.

[Vince Palamara]

7 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

Seymour Hersh interviewed several agents for his 1997 book, "The Dark Side of Camelot".

 

One of the agents he inteviewed was William McIntyre, who rode on the left side of the followup car during the Dallas motorcade behind Clint Hill.

McIntyre said he and some of his colleagues on the White House detail "felt abused by their service on behalf of President Kennedy."

McIntyre cited the blatant procurement of prostitutes "by the President" in the presence of the agents as a slap in the face.

"...as a sworn law enforcement officer you're asking yourself,' Well what do they think of us ? ' When that occurs, the agent would feel that his authority and his reason for being there was nullified." ( pg. 241 )

Procurement of prostitutes is a crime and these crimes were being committed right in front of the agents.

How did they know these women weren't spies ?

How did they know they weren't carrying a weapon ?

How did they know they weren't going to bite the President in the genitals ?

Having been a law professional myself I understand how it had to have been a terrible blow to their morale.

 

[Michael Crane]

8 hours ago, Richard Price said:

You and I seem to think alike.  I remember first hearing about them either here or on JFK Lancer.  They can be seen in the Zapruder film (fleetingly) and of course the individual frames (Costella, etc.).  There just are so few pictures taken with a view towards the south as opposed to towards the North (TSBD & grassy knoll).  I think if we can find pictures on film/photos taken in the days/weeks after the shooting, we might be able to get additional perspective.  It's just difficult to find stuff like that as anything not relevant to the supposed shooter locations are deemed irrelevant by most.  I think I will try to find some of the pictures showing the flowers, etc. that popped up in the plaza on the days afterward.  The problem with many of those are that they are focused on the lawn area and they are black and white which means you have to look very carefully if you even find one with the curbing within the picture.

Courtesy of forum member Chris Davidson.

[Michael Crane]

A little more help with the yellow curb from David Joseph.

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Michael Crane

[Allen Lowe]

I don’t believe that the Secret Service were told to procure prostitutes for JFK. This is just more BS rationale for either their failures or their plotting against him. There’s just absolutely no evidence that this ever was done. Give me some evidence other than what these guys, who clearly couldn’t be trusted (see Abe Bolden) said.