What is the Deep State?

[Paul Brancato]

How do they control major media? Not just by ownership but by some degree of editorial control. We don’t ever get to see how they accomplish that do we? Or look at the precise relationship between editors and owners. How about Operation Mockingbird? Do you think it’s real, or just kind of faded away?
We are not privy to the mechanisms by which mega corporations write congressional laws, but they do, obviously to benefit themselves. Lawyers write the laws. Who’s lawyers? What is their loyalty? Does anyone know their names or affiliations? What is the precise method by which these corporations control tax policy? How about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, or Vietnam? Qui Bono? You and I? Who suffers? Does the average person realize that their elected government works for them more than for you?  Are you - Kirk and Matt - are saying you already know all this? Or are you asking me to prove it? And honestly, who killed the Kennedy brothers and MLK? 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Paul Brancato

[Guest]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:37 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Was he a preordained president then, or in the future? 

No, I don’t think he was, Hilary was the chosen etablishment caretaker. Just as perhaps Nixon was in 1960, sometimes these things swing the other way and catch people off guard. Perhaps we can draw an obscure parallel between Joseph P. Kennedy and Trump. Both were rejected by the old money blue bloods and were made to feel some level of humiliation. For JPK it was waiting all day for his invite to be passed under the door inviting him into the Porcelains, it never came. He was Irish and persona non grata in such cliques. Trump has always been viewed as a nouveau riche, as a brash wheeler dealer. There are few things stronger as a motivational force than discrimination and rejection. Trump went for it, he snuck in, as Hilary ran a much less than charismatic campaign. 
Once in office I have no doubt Trump was a bit of a stone in the shoe of some of these elites but, he also knew the reality if he upset them all. I think a lot of elites flourished under Trump and in some ways it represented continuity, he served a purpose. To me Trump isn’t in this clique but, they also won’t hang him out to dry as he’ll shop the lot of them if he has nothing to lose. Thats the way I see it. His rhetoric and poor public persona has allowed his successor and the security apparatus to further tighten the grip. 

 

On 6/17/2022 at 8:37 PM, Paul Brancato said:

It’s hard to imagine Cecil Rhodes in his grave rooting for a breakdown of civil society, even in service of a longer term aim of a totalitarian technocratic New World Order. 

It all depends what your objectives or desired outcomes are. We might make the same argument about Cecil Rhodes turning in his grave at the idea of WW2. The people who propped up all sides and profitted went unpunished, elites. It begs the question again, are we looking at reality or a contrived version of it. History is always written by the victors. 
 

The most crucial thing we can take from Rhodes leaving fortunes to a secret group is the actual structure of the group, the way it infiltrates. It's exactly how Prouty described the CIA infiltration of the military. Very compartmentalised. circles inside circles. I don’t think Quigley was a conspiracy theorist. He was one of them. Bill Clinton (a Rhodes Scholar) had the temerity to specifically reference Quigley In his nomination speech. CQ was telling a history of the world between around 1890 and 1963. 

 

On 6/17/2022 at 8:37 PM, Paul Brancato said:

The Ruling Class - forgive my Commie terminology - is also the New World Order. 

Yep 

Most here would accept that people meet behind closed doors to thrash out deals that are against what is legally permitted and against democratic values. For some reason, most seem not to understand that the direct evolution of that practice is to create more organisation so it becomes efficient, more effective and constitutes a rigged game. If you had the power, you’d remove as many variables that could go against you as possible. Both capitalism and socialism are corrupted. IMHO the latter Is an easier route for the elites to keep control in perpetuity. They want a caste system, a neo-feudaism; what better way than having it under the guise of a state that appears to be doing things for all, with an invisible hierarchy and a strict control of information.  

[Kirk Gallaway]

4 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

How do they control major media? Not just by ownership but by some degree of editorial control. We don’t ever get to see how they accomplish that do we? Or look at the precise relationship between editors and owners. How about Operation Mockingbird? Do you think it’s real, or just kind of faded away?
We are not privy to the mechanisms by which mega corporations write congressional laws, but they do, obviously to benefit themselves. Lawyers write the laws. Who’s lawyers? What is their loyalty? Does anyone know their names or affiliations? What is the precise method by which these corporations control tax policy? How about the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, or Vietnam? Qui Bono? You and I? Who suffers? Does the average person realize that their elected government works for them more than for you?  Are you - Kirk and Matt - are saying you already know all this? Or are you asking me to prove it? And honestly, who killed the Kennedy brothers and MLK? 

Paul: Back to earthbound U.S.A

Lobbyists and their industry lawyers buy Congressional influence by contributions to campaigns. These are largely a matter of public record.All their lobbyists are registered and the their lawyers are also a matter of record. They're not really hiding their influence.

Are the Republicans really hiding the fact that they're against increased spending toward Medicare?,or  Social Security? or Pro Citizen's United? That's just  public knowledge. Do they seem that concerned that the average person is going to ferret that out and expose them? Not really!

I've just told you recently there is a revolutionary world corporate minimum tax being hammered nation by nation. The Republicans are against it- completely!. Are they ashamed? Not at all? What more proof do you need? You and I and the average person doesn't need to know all "the mechanisms" or all the "precise methods". Because the point is, they're not hiding it..

Paul: Does the average person realize that their elected government works for them more than for you?

You mean "for the wealthy rather than for the people?" Some don't, I  think most people do, but they feel powerless to do anything about it, or a third  possibility is they look at  2 major parties views toward Medicare, toward Social Security, toward Citizen's United, toward a World minimum corporate tax that I've enumerated above and still spout, despite all the issues and evidence that the Democrats, are the "corporate party" and don't end voting  in their own interests, because they're morons.  

Edited June 20, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Matt Allison]

56 minutes ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Lobbyists and their industry lawyers buy Congressional influence by contributions to campaigns. These are largely a matter of public record.

Exactly. Young liberal voter apathy results in people getting "the government they deserve."

And across the aisle, MAGAs are fine with living a sh*ttier existence as long as it means they can be misogynistic, racist and bigoted.

There's a theory that the U.S. "peaked" around 1996-97. I'm starting to come around to the idea.

[Paul Brancato]

Democrats are not ‘the’ corporate party. But the center is corporate - obviously. Kirk - you seem to think I view both parties as equally bad. I’ve made the distinctions over the years many times. 
I don’t care whether you call it Deep State or not. Do you know somewhere deep that your cherished leaders in the 1960’s were neutralized by the same forces? 
Do you not see msm as wholly owned by the wealthy class? I even recall PBS not allowing an Anti Koch brothers doc to be shown. Yes, lobbyists and their lawyers are required by law to be visible. Do you recall any msm stories analyzing this in depth? Do lobbyists only have sway with Republicans?

At least have a clear eyed view of the Democratic Party. From your stated position I think I’m safe in assuming you were happy to see both Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden beat out Bernie Sanders for the nomination. Correct me if I’m mistaken. Do you think Assange committed criminal acts when he spilled our state secrets? What happened to the Panama Papers, or the more recent expose? Stories just died. How about Jeffrey Epstein? 
Of course I’d like to see a worldwide minimum corporate tax. I’m not holding my breath.

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by Paul Brancato

[Kirk Gallaway]

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

But the center is corporate - obviously. Kirk - you seem to think I view both parties as equally bad.

I've never said that.

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

From your stated position I think I’m safe in assuming you were happy to see both Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden beat out Bernie Sanders for the nomination. Correct me if I’m mistaken.

You are very mistaken, because you're not listening. Only a few days ago, I answered your post in the "Inevitable 56 year" thread where you've just posted. You were asking this question.

Paul: Is divided government better for them( the corporate state or "elites") than an autocratic nationalist ruler?

My response: Paraphrasing for brevity.

Multi national corporate interests  could go either way, autocratic or democratic.  But for U.S. multi national corporate interests,  the point of least resistance  is to uphold supposedly democratic regimes giving people an illusion of control while buying the government and  controlling their governments behind the scenes. Pretty kush job. This has worked all of our lives. They would say" If it isn't broke, why fix it?  But most don't even ask the question!

"If a Trump transition to autocracy could be done seamlessly,  a lot more might be in favor of it. But to them, anything's pretty much the same that can keep the order, short of, say Bernie Sanders."

 

Joe Biden and HC represent the corporate donor class of the Democrat Party. What I said here to you is that the corporate or elites of either party would prefer just about anybody, even an autocrat to Bernie Sanders. Does that sound like an endorsement of  Biden and HC to you?

 

Paul you're obviously incensed. The last 2 posts you've employed (ok unknowingly)what debaters call a "gish gallop" where you're  throwing every unsolved mystery but the kitchen sink out and asking me to validate your concept of the deep state. I think I did a good job point by point to show you that  the legislative examples you cited contrary to your belief, are not at all hidden. But i have no idea from your response if you were even listening or just reacting because you think I'm trying to take away your deep state from you. This is your thread, and you're the host, and as far as I'm concerned you have to be willing to listen to others.

 

This is just discussion to me, but I do have a small beef with you Paul. A lot of times your terms seem ambiguous in context to me. And any time I've asked you to define your terms, which is just a basic in courteous discussion, you've never answered ,and move on,  leading me to think you're above defining your terms. Ok , just sayin'

[Paul Brancato]

15 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

I've never said that.

You are very mistaken, because you're not listening. Only a few days ago, I answered your post in the "Inevitable 56 year" thread where you've just posted. You were asking this question.

Paul: Is divided government better for them( the corporate state or "elites") than an autocratic nationalist ruler?

My response: Paraphrasing for brevity.

Multi national corporate interests  could go either way, autocratic or democratic.  But for U.S. multi national corporate interests,  the point of least resistance  is to uphold supposedly democratic regimes giving people an illusion of control while buying the government and  controlling their governments behind the scenes. Pretty kush job. This has worked all of our lives. They would say" If it isn't broke, why fix it?  But most don't even ask the question!

"If a Trump transition to autocracy could be done seamlessly,  a lot more might be in favor of it. But to them, anything's pretty much the same that can keep the order, short of, say Bernie Sanders."

 

Joe Biden and HC represent the corporate donor class of the Democrat Party. What I said here to you is that the corporate or elites of either party would prefer just about anybody, even an autocrat to Bernie Sanders. Does that sound like an endorsement of  Biden and HC to you?

 

Paul you're obviously incensed. The last 2 posts you've employed (ok unknowingly)what debaters call a "gish gallop" where you're  throwing every unsolved mystery but the kitchen sink out and asking me to validate your concept of the deep state. I think I did a good job point by point to show you that  the legislative examples you cited contrary to your belief, are not at all hidden. But i have no idea from your response if you were even listening or just reacting because you think I'm trying to take away your deep state from you. This is your thread, and you're the host, and as far as I'm concerned you have to be willing to listen to others.

 

This is just discussion to me, but I do have a small beef with you Paul. A lot of times your terms seem ambiguous in context to me. And any time I've asked you to define your terms, which is just a basic in courteous discussion, you've never answered ,and move on,  leading me to think you're above defining your terms. Ok , just sayin'

Could you try not to be condescending to me? Let’s keep the subject Deep State. You are part of this forum which is ostensibly about JFK’s assassination. Deep State as a term is relatively new, perhaps 30-40 years since Peter Dale Scott coined it. He defines it pretty well. Things got confusing when the Trump wing co-opted the phrase. No one seems to know how to interpret the 2016 election, and the ensuing years, in Deep State terms. You say it’s a misnomer. I say it’s as old as civilization. What I am struggling with is who is operating behind the scenes during this crazy time. It’s hardly business as usual. It’s more global than ever. I look at the pandemic, and the Ukraine War, and I ask who benefits? A few things seem certain - any climate change initiative, however small, that we had is disappearing while oil and gas soar. Any bargaining power of labor is dwindling while corporations price gouge, and inflation runs rampant. Budget priorities that might benefit working people are way on the back burner. Are these just a random consequences? If I knew the answer I’d share it. But I’m impelled to ask the question. 
 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Paul Brancato

[Kirk Gallaway]

Paul, I have a memory , which i take no credit for of many things that people say that give me some clue of what they think. Maybe you're a person where things other people say just go in one ear and out the other. And that's ok, but after many years on on this forum you're saying that I'm aligned with Biden or HC over Bernie Sanders. Those are fighting words, dude!  And you will be called on them.

Nothing you've listed here qualifies to me as "deep state'. One thing , maybe on thing.

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Things got confusing when the Trump wing co-opted the phrase. (Deep state)

Not to me.

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

No one seems to know how to interpret the 2016 election, and the ensuing years, in Deep State terms.

i think I do, or I'll try.  Trump was moreover than anything else,  an unknown quantity in 2016 to the 'elites" in your definition which I accept and the "corporate state" in mine.  Hilary was not an enthusiastic choice at all, but represented the status quo, which as I've said to you a few days ago, to them  is very desirable.

You have only to look at the markets Paul.There was a sharp self off overnight when Trump won the electoral college, Only to have a sharp reversal when markets opened the next morning  and it was realized, it's probably going to be a great thing with Trump, an outsider needing the support of a completely Republican lead congress. That is, both the House, Senate and the President are under the control of the pro business Republican party. It may be confusing to you, if you're adding in a bunch of other things you think are "deep State", but I'm just going hold you to your best definition I've heard, "The Elites."

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

You say it’s a misnomer. I say it’s as old as civilization.

Yes, I'm saying it's not really hidden. If you're talking about the privilege that the wealthy and famous and their families enjoy, say to game the justice system, for example, or just general opportunity. I agree that has been going on since the world began. I don't think that's the deep state Peter Dale Scott could be talking, How in the world do you expect to do anything about that?

 

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

What I am struggling with is who is operating behind the scenes during this crazy time. It’s hardly business as usual. It’s more global than ever.

and why isn't it business as usual? and being more global makes it harder to understand? . Why? It's another one of these statements like where you're just assuming we should buy into what you say, but you're giving no reason.

 

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

I look at the pandemic, and the Ukraine War, and I ask who benefits?

 The answer to both is most of the world does not benefit and in some cases the War is creating shortages and inflated prices and certain industries are gouging and shouldn't be allowed to. The arms industry is undoubtedly benefiting from the war in Ukraine. So what? Are you suggesting they started it? Or is it the work of a bloodthirsty little autocrat trying to salvage his place in Russian history before he dies. We don't have to go into that for the umpteenth time. Similarly if you're going to insist to me the pandemic was deliberately caused by people whose only goal was to secure profit, I'd think you're way out in left field.

 

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

A few things seem certain - any climate change initiative, however small, that we had is disappearing while oil and gas soar.

And that's a deep state mystery? No it's not. The U.S. elected Trump and Trump walked out on the Paris accords. what other answer do you have?

 

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Any bargaining power of labor is dwindling while corporations price gouge, and inflation runs rampant.

That's been going on for 40 years. Reagan started that,(meme below) and it was exacerbated later by anti labor trade treaties.

 

1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

Budget priorities that might benefit working people are way on the back burner. Are these just a random consequences?

No they're not at all random and I tried to give you the reason only a couple of posts ago. Either the average person isn't aware his government works for the wealthy, but a lot of people do know and just feel powerless to do anything about it, and some people, the unkind would say are just"stupid", or the more temperate would say,";simply don't vote in their interests." 

These are not answers the typical conspiracy theorist wants to hear. Because it involves taking more responsibility for one's life and not passing it off on some totalitarian entity, that's so hopeless, to fight you may as well not even get up in the morning. 

Here's a question for everybody. If the Dems keep presenting a good case against Trump and his cronies, but doesn't yet get any conviction  and the Republicans win both houses in November thereby ending the Congressional investigations, will it be due to the.........

MSM??

or the......... "Deep State"?

*******

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Benjamin Cole]

On 6/20/2022 at 9:12 AM, Matt Allison said:

Exactly. Young liberal voter apathy results in people getting "the government they deserve."

And across the aisle, MAGAs are fine with living a sh*ttier existence as long as it means they can be misogynistic, racist and bigoted.

There's a theory that the U.S. "peaked" around 1996-97. I'm starting to come around to the idea.

No. The 1950s and 1960s. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The 1950s and 1960s. 

100% 

[Matt Allison]

12 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

No. The 1950s and 1960s. 

Black folks would beg to differ.

[Paul Brancato]

3 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Black folks would beg to differ.

Good point Matt, but they don’t have a lot to cheer about now either. 

[Benjamin Cole]

Right.

The Donk answer to the destruction of the American middle class and the Detroitification of America...is to play the divisive, diversionary ID politics card.

But history shows the Donks linked arms with 'Phants in worshipping globalization, and a US without borders for trade and immigration. 

Clinton loved NAFTA.

True, transexuals had it worse in the 1950s and 1960s, and sex roles were more defined as well. Women who preferred the career life were not treated fairly. 

But the Donks will deservedly get slaughtered if their only cards are ID politics and how bad Mr Big Bad Orange was. 

The establishment parties in France have been obliterated. I hope the same for the US. 

 

[Pat Speer]

17 hours ago, Matt Allison said:

Black folks would beg to differ.

Not just black folks.

The 50's was an era of segregation, self-destructive fear of communism, war in Korea, high taxation, rampant consumerism, and oppression against gays and women. 

The 60's was an era of racial tension, a war in Vietnam, a culture war at home. Assassinations. Much upheaval. Much unhappiness. 

The point can be made that the U.S. peaked under Clinton, and maybe as recently as the beginning of the Obama years, when the economy was on the rise, and most white people thought it was just dandy we had a black president. Things turned when a right-wing hate machine convinced many whites they were losing their place in society, and that we needed to turn fascist to restore order. 

So, yes, Trump was a symptom of a sickness. But he was also the sickness. It's impossible to think that any other politician of his ilk--e.g. Ted Cruz--could have been so harmful to American civility and reputation. Until he is put out to pasture, permanently, no reforms regarding income inequality or social justice are possible. 

While Biden has done much to restore American reputation around the world, moreover, I suspect many of our allies are still hesitant, seeing as the Orange Turd Blossom "Special" remains on the tracks, hoping to retake the main line. 

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Not just black folks.

The 50's was an era of segregation, self-destructive fear of communism, war in Korea, high taxation, rampant consumerism, and oppression against gays and women. 

The 60's was an era of racial tension, a war in Vietnam, a culture war at home. Assassinations. Much upheaval. Much unhappiness. 

The point can be made that the U.S. peaked under Clinton, and maybe as recently as the beginning of the Obama years, when the economy was on the rise, and most white people thought it was just dandy we had a black president. Things turned when a right-wing hate machine convinced many whites they were losing their place in society, and that we needed to turn fascist to restore order. 

So, yes, Trump was a symptom of a sickness. But he was also the sickness. It's impossible to think that any other politician of his ilk--e.g. Ted Cruz--could have been so harmful to American civility and reputation. Until he is put out to pasture, permanently, no reforms regarding income inequality or social justice are possible. 

While Biden has done much to restore American reputation around the world, moreover, I suspect many of our allies are still hesitant, seeing as the Orange Turd Blossom "Special" remains on the tracks, hoping to retake the main line. 

Pat-

But if Biden pursues the globalization path preferred by multinationals...and continues financing the $1.4 trillion (annual cost) global guard service for multinationals...and de facto open borders for trade and immigration...

Then,  the middle-class will continue to see loose labor markets undercut wages, and social tensions (exacerbated by the M$M) will only get worse. 

Does "restore the American reputation around the world" include endless trade deficits, and gigantic outlays on overseas military bases? 11 aircraft carrier "strike forces"? 

This is institutionalized globalism, on steroids, on behalf of multinationals who have fiduciary obligations to shareholders that trump any loyalty to any nation.

If you doubt that, check out Apple, Disney and the NBA. 

Honoring WTO trade deals that specifically ignore many types of government subsidies? 

A black immigrant transexual will do far better in a US with tight labor markets than with intentionally loose labor markets. 

The globalists took great umbrage at the trade and immigration aspects of Trump's macroeconomic policies. 

Life for most Americans will not get better under Biden.