Opinion: The WHY of it

[Gil Jesus]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I always enjoy reading Gil Jesus commentary.

Oh, maybe I disagree on this or that, but so what? 

We are here to learn about the JFKA, which entails learning about the Deep State and the M$M. 

It pays to be tolerant of other views, and learn what you can from other people. 

I happen to agree in the main: The Deep State had long knives out for Trump from the get-go. 

And I always hold your opinion in the highest regard.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Kirk Gallaway]

Yeah, but why not "the why not of it?"

[Guest]

On 6/23/2022 at 1:09 PM, Gil Jesus said:

t was all fear driven. And the sad part is that fear is still driving America in the the 21st Century.

It’s perhaps the most powerful emotion, it consumes the public, spreads like a disease, and paralyses critical thinking skills. I’ve read a lot on mass psychosis and how it works, we have an ancient part of the brain that we refer to when at risk or under threat, this bypasses the logical newer part of the brain. If media or political leaders can put us in this state, we are so easily manipulable. History is littered with tyrants and despots who were very good at this. Now we have departments of governments that are exceptional at it. The red menace may have consumed the public in the 1950’s and 60’s but, today we have all sorts of other menaces that are used to coerce. Machiavelli is a great person to read. As is Hannah Arendt, Gustave Le Bon, Frank Furedi, Joost Meerloo and Mattias Desmet has just released a book about the psychology of totalitarianism. Essentially the mind is vulnerable to certain things. 
 

On 6/23/2022 at 1:09 PM, Gil Jesus said:

I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I posted this as an opinion base

The fact you are not afraid to be the black sheep is what makes your posts interesting, they are a product of your thinking, there is no filter or care as to whether others agree. That’s a good thing. 

[Pete Mellor]

Gil, I must be the most dedicated fence sitter on this Forum.  It is somewhat uncomfortable, being of the picket variety.  I always read your posts with interest too.

However,  I cling to factual truths that I could present in a court of law and in your 'Introduction' post you ignore one mighty faction that vehemently opposed JFK as president.  Who was behind the gun(s) of Dealey Plaza?  CIA, Texan oil, Cubans, Military, Right wing fanatics etc etc?

I feel that the only courtroom solid proof of who was involved was played out in the DPD basement on the Sunday morning by Jack Ruby.  I can't see any argument that Ruby was not organised crime.  His history, his associates, his travels, his phone records, his lies after his rubbing out of Oswald.  Whatever Oswald was prior to 22nd Nov to any government agency, the suspicion is that he knew some information about the Dallas action....or why Ruby?  I reckon Kilgallen was along these lines when she announced that she would blow the case wide open, prior to being rubbed out herself.

Sure, many will say that if the assassination was purely a mob hit, why the apparent Secret Service set-up.  There are also the false defector links to Langley.  But, CIA and Mafia had many years of links prior to JFK's killing.  The mob needed the Attorney General's assault on the underworld's empire stopped, and that meant JFK's demise.

Also mentioned in your post is RFK's assassination.  A case can easily be made that organised crime was behind this assassination, for obvious reasons.  Mafia was all over Sirhan as well as Cesar and even the Ambassador Hotel.  In both cases a very effective cover-up was undertaken by government agencies and I can think of quite a few reasons for that to happen.

[Joe Bauer]

7 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Gil, I must be the most dedicated fence sitter on this Forum.  It is somewhat uncomfortable, being of the picket variety.  I always read your posts with interest too.

However,  I cling to factual truths that I could present in a court of law and in your 'Introduction' post you ignore one mighty faction that vehemently opposed JFK as president.  Who was behind the gun(s) of Dealey Plaza?  CIA, Texan oil, Cubans, Military, Right wing fanatics etc etc?

I feel that the only courtroom solid proof of who was involved was played out in the DPD basement on the Sunday morning by Jack Ruby.  I can't see any argument that Ruby was not organised crime.  His history, his associates, his travels, his phone records, his lies after his rubbing out of Oswald.  Whatever Oswald was prior to 22nd Nov to any government agency, the suspicion is that he knew some information about the Dallas action....or why Ruby?  I reckon Kilgallen was along these lines when she announced that she would blow the case wide open, prior to being rubbed out herself.

Sure, many will say that if the assassination was purely a mob hit, why the apparent Secret Service set-up.  There are also the false defector links to Langley.  But, CIA and Mafia had many years of links prior to JFK's killing.  The mob needed the Attorney General's assault on the underworld's empire stopped, and that meant JFK's demise.

Also mentioned in your post is RFK's assassination.  A case can easily be made that organised crime was behind this assassination, for obvious reasons.  Mafia was all over Sirhan as well as Cesar and even the Ambassador Hotel.  In both cases a very effective cover-up was undertaken by government agencies and I can think of quite a few reasons for that to happen.

Thanks for mentioning Dorothy Kilgallen.

One of our most famous highest society celebrities in American culture for 20 years, rubbed out because of her digging into the JFK assassination and Jack Ruby.

And not one film about her amazing celebrity life and shockingly suspicious murder to end it...ever?

Heck, if Kilgallen had never gotten involved in the JFK case, I guarantee you someone would have made an A list film about her amazing, achieving, interesting and glamourous high society life already.

Her dark power murder however, actually put the kiss of death as well on bringing her courageous truth and justice seeking life and suspicious end to the big screen.

That power didn't want any more scrutiny and have successfully made sure her story was essentially buried ( except for a few poorly received and poorly publicized books ) and thus ... forgotten.

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

The mob needed the Attorney General's assault on the underworld's empire stopped, and that meant JFK's demise.

 

Pete,

It seems to me that there is a big flaw in the mob-did-it theory. I can't for the life of me figure out why the Johnson Administration would go to such great lengths in their coverup to protect the mob. Also it doesn't explain the CIA's apparent false flag operation against Cuba and Russia that they conducted in Mexico City.

 

[Pete Mellor]

5 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Thanks for mentioning Dorothy Kilgallen.

One of our most famous highest society celebrities in American culture for 20 years, rubbed out because of her digging into the JFK assassination and Jack Ruby.

And not one film about her amazing celebrity life and shockingly suspicious murder to end it...ever?

Heck, if Kilgallen had never gotten involved in the JFK case, I guarantee you someone would have made an A list film about her amazing, achieving, interesting and glamourous high society life already.

Her dark power murder however, actually put the kiss of death as well on bringing her courageous truth and justice seeking life and suspicious end to the big screen.

That power didn't want any more scrutiny and have successfully made sure her story was essentially buried ( except for a few poorly received and poorly publicized books ) and thus ... forgotten.

 

Agree Joe, she certainly seems to have been 'the woman who knew too much'.  AND continuing the mob associations, I believe one of the suspects behind her killing, if I recall correctly, had Mafia links, I believe had connections to Sam Giancana, whose many operatives had contacts with Jack Ruby in the months leading up to Nov. '63, just to complete the circle.  & as for making an A list movie, once again, we know who has their fingers in Hollywood.

[Pete Mellor]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Pete,

It seems to me that there is a big flaw in the mob-did-it theory. I can't for the life of me figure out why the Johnson Administration would go to such great lengths in their coverup to protect the mob. Also it doesn't explain the CIA's apparent false flag operation against Cuba and Russia that they conducted in Mexico City.

 

Sandy, sure, I have to concur.  If there were no flaws in our theories we would have had this case cracked many decades ago.  Some declare that LBJ was the mastermind behind things, others think he had some prior knowledge of events, & it appears he did tell some porkies about Dealey Plaza with Youngblood.  But hey, he wouldn't be the only president to cover for the mob.  Tricky Dicky was in deep, as was cowboy Reagan.  Very soon after the assassination Johnson was in communication with friend and neighbour J. Edgar, yet another high ranker with many years of ties and obligations to Mafia.  CIA, FBI and Warren all trod very carefully to completely ignore organised crime.  Another provable Cosa Nostra link to Dallas is Eugene Hale Brading who was discovered in the Dal Tex, with a false i.d. & blatant lies about his reasons for being there. (Wasn't he also in L.A. for RFK's killing?)

I'm going back on my fence with regard to Mexico City.  I'm certainly not proposing that American intelligence had clean hands in this murder, even FBI could have been accessories after the fact. The sad facts are that too many politicians, federal entities, big money, union power and intelligence agencies all worked alongside, with and for criminal enterprise.  Aint that been the way of the world throughout history.  

Edited June 25, 2022 by Pete Mellor
Typo

[Sandy Larsen]

36 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Sandy, sure, I have to concur.  If there were no flaws in our theories we would have had this case cracked many decades ago.

 

Well, I certainly get your point about organized crime in America and how it was ignored by corrupt officials. I've seen a number of times where forum member say the Edgar Hoover didn't believe in organized crime. I just checked more into that statement (briefly) and it looks more like he ignored organized crime rather than not believe it existed.

Having said that, I still think the CIA-did-it theory makes a lot more sense. It explains Mexico City. It explains how Oswald could be manipulated the way he was. Not to mention manipulation of Secret Service elements... were there even any mob/Secret Service links?

My working theory for many years has been that the CIA did it. And so far I haven't seen any flaws in the theory. I am therefore always surprised to learn of someone who is on he fence or a disbeliever in the theory.

P.S. I do believe that elements of the military and maybe even the mob may have also been involved. But that the CIA was the master planner. It's pure speculation on my part, but I think the military and CIA were he driving forces and that Johnson looked the other way, so to speak. Mafia elements may have assisted. But only a small handful of CIA knew exactly what was going on.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 6/22/2022 at 1:15 PM, Gil Jesus said:

Trump's election exposed the "swamp" and although he had not committed any crimes or misdemeanors, the Democrat House impeached him twice, once after he had left office.

 

Gil,

Do you believe Trump's claim that he really won the 2020 election, and that it was stolen from him due to massive fraud in the votes?

 

[Joe Bauer]

I think it's not illogical to consider several power groups working very loosely together ( extremely compartmentalized and with just a handful of full knowledge coordinators ) in pulling off the "Big Event" with one or two at the creation, planning, implementation and over-all controlling head of this corruption fed Hydra.

In World War II we and the rest of the free world were in a fight for our lives.

In a life and death struggle like that even a Democratic, constitution, equal civil rights foundation based and respecting society will do whatever it takes to keep from losing that struggle.

The military basically takes over the government.

Great restrictions on personal liberties, rights, free speech, interring tens of thousands of lawful Japanese/American citizens against their will, you name it, our military government felt we had to do this.

Creation of military intelligence agencies and giving them incredible unlimited monies and power besides our established FBI.

Turning to American criminal organizations, no matter how law breaking and damaging they were to our society previously and using their influence to help the war effort, was just another compromise we know our military control leaders took in this fighting for our lives struggle.

It's my belief however, that this particular compromise deal with the organized crime devil was never responsibly let go of once the war was over.

They are a seductive bunch. That's their game. Money, sex, satisfying amoral cravings and indulgences. Getting rid of your enemies without any dirt showing on your own hands, etc. 

Incredibly, 20 years later even some of our cold war agency heroes like Wild Bill Harvey were still more enamored and respective of and buddy buddy with and more loyal to organized crime figures like "Johnny Roselli" than they were of our own president!

Same with cutting back the hugely increased budgets and power of military intelligence agencies ( foreign and domestic operations ) that too often didn't operate under the same constitutional framework restraints governing system we expect in a non-war time government.

I'm just trying to set up in a simple way what I think may have been the origins of this corrupt power group Hydra that may have been behind the JFK event.

The American Mafia ( one of the lower level Hydra heads ) could have been used in many ways to cover any loose ends after the Big Event happened. Without knowing anything about the real big hit and what higher positioned Hydra heads planned and carried it out.

Big oil could have been another Hydra head. And they also had connections to the American Mafia. Muchison's Del Charro a favored hangout for some of them ( as well as ole J. Edgar and his dressed alike companion Clyde Tolson ) from time to time no?

A reasonable guess is that these richest men on Earth occasionally needed the dirty work services of these thugs themselves from time to time.

The Mafia exploded in power and influence right after WWII.

Their services were just too seductive to let go of afterwards. 

Like in the movie the Godfather when Al Pacino's Michael Corleone says to his Diane Keaton portrayed wife Kay ... "now whose being naive Kay" in response to her gut sickened saying ..."senators and Presidents don't have people killed."

We all know now that between 1945 and 1963 the Mafia had the goods on thousands of judges and police, as well as governors, senators, even presidents.

But still, there was always a higher pay grade force above their level. A bigger and more powerful Hydra head. 

Who were the other more powerful hydra heads?

Maybe not the very top ones but Big Oil ( richest men on Earth at that time) and their hugely funded extreme right wing organizations that spewed out JFK hate and fear propaganda nation wide.

Maybe another was wealthy segregationists?

All wanting JFK out of the picture.

LBJ and J.Edgar Hoover filled in the power vacuum once that task was complete.

Just my common sense guess about a possible group effort in the JFK affair.

And again, using the Mafia to tie up loose ends after the big event.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Gil Jesus]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Gil,

Do you believe Trump's claim that he really won the 2020 election, and that it was stolen from him due to massive fraud in the votes?

 

I was skeptical until I saw the documentary, "2000 mules". I now believe there were irregularities in the voting. Some states are beginning to reveal that as well. Until they show that the irregularities were massive enough to swing the states one way or another, I'll just say that there is evidence of irregularities and leave it there. I do find it amusing that a candidate who did almost no campaigning was able to get more votes than any Presidential candidate in history, including incumbants.

[Pete Mellor]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well, I certainly get your point about organized crime in America and how it was ignored by corrupt officials. I've seen a number of times where forum member say the Edgar Hoover didn't believe in organized crime. I just checked more into that statement (briefly) and it looks more like he ignored organized crime rather than not believe it existed.

Having said that, I still think the CIA-did-it theory makes a lot more sense. It explains Mexico City. It explains how Oswald could be manipulated the way he was. Not to mention manipulation of Secret Service elements... were there even any mob/Secret Service links?

My working theory for many years has been that the CIA did it. And so far I haven't seen any flaws in the theory. I am therefore always surprised to learn of someone who is on he fence or a disbeliever in the theory.

P.S. I do believe that elements of the military and maybe even the mob may have also been involved. But that the CIA was the master planner. It's pure speculation on my part, but I think the military and CIA were he driving forces and that Johnson looked the other way, so to speak. Mafia elements may have assisted. But only a small handful of CIA knew exactly what was going on.

 

Sandy, 

My working theory for many years has been that the CIA did it. And so far I haven't seen any flaws in the theory. I am therefore always surprised to learn of someone who is on he fence or a disbeliever in the theory.

Actually, that has been my predominant speculation behind Dallas too.  However, what I was highlighting in Gil's thread is the fact that the only solid proof of involvement comes with Ruby, and that leads to the mob.  I also think that the Mafia style killings of Roselli and Giancana were further indicators of their involvement.  

Were there even any mob/Secret Service links?

Interesting question!  I think that is one for Vince.  (Actually his birthday today!)  I could ask also, were there any CIA/Secret Service links?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

I also think that the Mafia style killings of Roselli and Giancana were further indicators of their involvement. 

That’s straight out of the playbook isn’t it? If you want people to believe its the mob, make it look like a mob killing. Its very easy misdirection. Same way if you wanted to poison a public figure and frame the Russians, you’d use Polonium 210. 
 

Where was the line of separation between the mob and the CIA. Multiple notable figures were allegedly helping with Mongoose and to get Castro. Essentially to me, its a hierarchy and the CIA sits above the mob in power. You might say in Italy the Cosa Nostra ran the show for a long time and assassinated leaders, in contrast the USA was the most powerful country on earth in the 60’s, by killing a president you might have set in motion a purge that would have meant the end of the Mafia, especially with RFK as attorney general. They’d have had to have word that Johnson, the CIA and FBI would not turn on them. Its kind of a big thing killing the president of the USA, something you’d wanna be 100% certain of getting away with. Of course all of these factions had motivations to kill JFK. 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

I was skeptical until I saw the documentary, "2000 mules". I now believe there were irregularities in the voting. Some states are beginning to reveal that as well. Until they show that the irregularities were massive enough to swing the states one way or another, I'll just say that there is evidence of irregularities and leave it there. I do find it amusing that a candidate who did almost no campaigning was able to get more votes than any Presidential candidate in history, including incumbants.

 

Are you aware that Trump tried to get Mike Pence and several other people to do illegal things in order for him to stay in power?