Did Oswald deny he went to Mexico City in his interrogation?

[James DiEugenio]

Now as I said, the Secret Service was trying anything to get Marina to say Lee had been in Mexico CIty.

In those early days of detention she resisted, and not in any  mealy mouthed way.  She said no.

In fact, she said no when they did not even ask her.  When it came on TV, she turned to them and said, if you ask me again, I am still saying no. (Kuchel Report of 11/29)

Now, if one is thinking logically, which Pat does not on this issue, the obvious question is "Why?  Why are they putting this pressure on?"

So what happens when Marina says no?  Well, Ruth starts producing "evidence" from that endless treasure trove of her home that Oswald had been to Mexico CIty.  Evidence that, again, everyone else had missed.

And even when that is not enough, PJM finds evidence in August ! Does anyone buy that?  Because Liebeler and Russell could not stomach it.

Again, the logical question:  Why?

Its not the critics doing.  This is all in the record.  Speer wants to ignore that its not the critics. 

What force is driving this endless and delirious drive to place Oswald in Mexico City? After both LHO and his wife say he was not there.  

Edited July 7, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

I also think very little of Pat's, oh its a CT vs LN issue.

First of all, I stand with my boss.  Can we dump that CT label?  Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy, period.  End of story.  

But why for instance, was there a denial that any of the tapes made in Mexico survived?  When there were at least seven witnesses who said they heard them?  Maybe because it was not Oswald on the tapes? (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, pp. 304-05)

[James DiEugenio]

Now, if one buys the WR, how did Oswald get back from Mexico City?

Because the story they print was not the first story that Ochoa and Echeverria gave to the FBI.

Those two originally said that Oswald departed on a Transportes Frontera bus, number 340.  But when the FBI checked this out they realized it was not possible since Oswald could not have made a meeting at the TEC in Dallas at 4: 30 P.M if he was on that bus.

Now, anyone with any objectivity would ask: Well, then how did the original story get put together?  Or should I say plastered together?

Edited July 7, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Pat Speer]

19 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I also think very little of Pat's, oh its a CT vs LN issue.

First of all, I stand with my boss.  Can we dump that CT label?  Kennedy was killed by a conspiracy, period.  End of story.  

But why for instance, was there a denial that any of the tapes made in Mexico survived?  When there were at least seven witnesses who said they heard them?  Maybe because it was not Oswald on the tapes? (DiEugenio, The JFK Assassination: The Evidence Today, pp. 304-05)

This raises a few questions.

1) Who is your boss?

2) What do you mean by saying  I said it's a CT vs LN issue? I think I said both sides want to believe Oswald denied going to Mexico for their own reasons.

As far as the last comment, I have said for years that I believe Oswald was impersonated while in Mexico, but that this might not have anything to do with the assassination. it could have been done to conceal sources, or even as part of a mole hunt. I have talked with a number of those who've spent significant time on this issue and they basically agreed.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Pat Speer

[James DiEugenio]

There was more than one indication that Oswald left Mexico City by car.  

But this would not be accepted by the FBI or the Warren Commission since Oswald allegedly  did not drive, suggesting an imposter. And if he did leave someone would have had to have driven him. 

Which was a non starter for the FBI.  In fact, even by March, the FBI had not determined how Oswald left Mexico!  This angered Hoover. He sent a memo to Mexico City which said in part, "The mode of travel on FM 11 was shown as auto.  As you know it has not been established how Oswald left Mexico on October 3rd.  Until  we can prove Oswald was on a bus, this possibility will always exist that he left by auto as indicated by Mexican Immigration records." (3/12/64, emphasis added)

Does it get any more clear than that? What is the message?  Hoover is saying we have to get Oswald on a bus, and it cannot be the one the Mexicans say it was.  So now the FBI says that all those sources about Oswald in a car were wrong.

Edited July 7, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

Clark Anderson was the FBI LEGAT in Mexico City. 

He understood that the Mexican authorities had plastered together a story that would not hold up. And he even wrote that in a memo. He understood the Transportes Frontera bus story was wrong. But he knew what Hoover wanted.

So now Anderson got  revised FM -11 lists, different from the original one.  One from an unidentified source. Both lists should have been identical but they were not.  Over two dozen names  appear on the list supplied by the unidentified source that are not on the Immigrations office source. . But miraculously both lists now had the name Oswald on them.

The FBI never explained the discrepancy in the number of people who left Mexico via Nuevo Laredo on October 3rd.   But that did not matter.  Now they had "evidence"--revised and not matching--that  Oswald left Mexico by bus. Four days after Hoover demanded it.

[James DiEugenio]

So now Anderson decides that Oswald left Mexico on Transportes del Norte lines.

The only problem was that he was not on the list for bus 332.  His Mexican informant found a travel agency and he went there.  He now found a reservation in the name of O. H. Lee and that name does not appear on the bus manifest.

Then another source actually found the collected tickets, 6 months later.  Where? Behind the bus line building sitting amid spare tires and parts!  Anyone who buys that story should check  into a hospital tonight. Guess what? One of the tickets says O H Lee.

So then the drivers of the number 332 bus were asked if they recalled Oswald. They both said no.

The ticket taker in Laredo, Raul TIjerina, also said he did not recognize Oswald. The bus driver on this trip from Laredo to San Antonio also did not recall Oswald. 

Greyhound bus, driven by Ben Julian, departed San Antonio for Dallas and arrived in Dallas at 2:20 PM, in time for Oswald to be at the TEC that day.  Julian did not recognize Oswald.

It did not matter. By hook or crook--and as the reader can see there was a lot of that-- the FBI now had Oswald in hand by bus.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

To reply to Pat, apparently he does not know I worked for Oliver Stone.

To further inform him, on the Joe Rogan show, Oliver resisted being named a Conspiracy Theorist.

I also resist it.  With or without ET, the film proves overwhelmingly that Kennedy was killed in a plot.  And we even showed the reasons for it.

[James DiEugenio]

As per this "debate", people like Von Pein want to say that Oswald denied being there to cover up what he had done.

They avoid all the evidence above which brings into question every aspect of the WC evidence he was there. In the above I have shown serious holes in: the trip down, what he was allegedly doing while there, and the return trip. In the real world, these should not exist. 

1. We should have tapes with his voice. Yet the CIA made the tapes disappear.

2. We should have as many as ten photos of him entering and exiting consulates. There are none and we have the document today that says there were none at the time.

3.  There should be a clear record of him leaving by bus.  No revisions or additions.

4. There should be a clear record of him going down with a clean passport.

That did not happen.  You will wait till Hades freezes over to find these problems in the WR.  Why, if as Belin said, he saw every CIA record on Oswald?  Because Ochoa and Echeverria basically told Willens to buzz off.  And that is in Shenon's book.

[James DiEugenio]

Two can play this game that Pat mentions about playing to a cause.

I could easily say, well Pat backs GD on this because he thinks LBJ killed Kennedy. So he is doing this because:

1. Where is the connection between Ruth, Michael and LBJ?

2. What did LBJ have to do  with  Mexico City?

I don't do that kind of thing. Unless I am provoked.

I let the evidence speak for itself.  As I have done here.  I mean if you do not think that something was up with Oswald and Mexico City then you must have an agenda as wide as the Grand Canyon, or you are simply in denial.

And Mexico CIty keeps on unwinding.  Malcolm Blunt  sent me documents that show the CIA had  Duran abducted within 24 hours and escorted Elena Garro de Paz to a hotel at the same time.

Now, how the heck could anyone know within 24 hours that these would be the two poles of the debate about there being an imposter in Mexico City?  I mean on November 23rd!  But yet Betsy Wolf found that information in Ray Rocca's notebooks.  Is it just a coincidence that Wolf's work was never transcribed into memo form by the HSCA and was  one of the very last declassifications--on a time phase-- by the ARRB?  See if you find Betsy on Von Pein's site. 

Yet in my view, there was no more important researcher on the HSCA staff than her.  And I include Danny H and Ed Lopez. She proved what Newman did in Oswald and the CIA 17 years before he did it!

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[James DiEugenio]

BTW, we did have a Mexico City segment in the film.  With Danny, Eddie and Lisa Pease.

We did have a brief segment on Betsy Wolf also.

They were both cut out.

I will explain this in Dallas this fall.

[Sean Coleman]

I was on the fence with the Mexico affair but after that right riveting read JD, you got me convinced. 
Would like to know more about Duran, apparently they broke her.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

45 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

To reply to Pat, apparently he does not know I worked for Oliver Stone.

I'm sure he does but the way you worded it made it sound like he was "running" you.

46 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Oliver resisted being named a Conspiracy Theorist.

I also resist it. 

You can resist all you want but you are the textbook definition. See Uscinski, p. 23.

51 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

the film proves overwhelmingly that Kennedy was killed in a plot.

No. If it did that the mainstream media, politicians and everyone else would be forced to admit it.

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

There was more than one indication that Oswald left Mexico City by car.  

But this would not be accepted by the FBI or the Warren Commission since Oswald allegedly  did not drive, suggesting an imposter. And if he did leave someone would have had to have driven him. 

Which was a non starter for the FBI.  In fact, even by March, the FBI had not determined how Oswald left Mexico!  This angered Hoover. He sent a memo to Mexico City which said in part, "The mode of travel on FM 11 was shown as auto.  As you know it has not been established how Oswald left Mexico on October 3rd.  Until  we can prove Oswald was on a bus, this possibility will always exist that he left by auto as indicated by Mexican Immigration records." (3/12/64, emphasis added)

Does it get any more clear than that? What is the message?  Hoover is saying we have to get Oswald on a bus, and it cannot be the one the Mexicans say it was.  So now the FBI says that all those sources about Oswald in a car were wrong.

Fascinating stuff. I probably read it in your book but I definitely didn’t remember this.

I said in an earlier comment that I think it’s possible the whole bus trip story was invented to conceal Oswald’s true method of travel, and it looks like that’s exactly what happened.

If Oswald really entered (and left) Mexico by car, he was either: a) part of an intel operation; or b) impersonated for the entire trip and never went to MC. I don’t see any other way around it. Oswald hitchhiking across the border or something and all the way to MC and back just doesn’t seem credible at all. 

Basically, if Oswald took a car to Mexico, it’s just as bad as if he didn’t go, IMO.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Paul Cummings]

That's a long ass drive to Mexico City. If he went to Mexico City IMO he was flown.