Message From David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Cory Santos said:

Ask, if it was Oswald, after witnessing this incident, why would he not mill around like everyone else?  Why would he go back up to the second floor and buy a soda?  That doesn’t seem odd to anyone?  If he was outside and wanted an alibi doesn’t it seem odd he did not establish an alibi?  Or did all the witnesses lie?

 

Cory,

The guys at ROKC, especially Bart Kamp, have debunked the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. I debunked it on my own as well. I also analyzed the film of Baker running across Elm Extension and proved that he was NOT headed for the TSBD steps. He was running at an angle -- the same angle as the marked cross-walk -- where he would end up at the intersection of Elm and Houston had he continued in that direction. (The film ends before we find out.) But he certainly wasn't headed for the steps... he had already passed them by the time the film ends.

The whole 2nd floor encounter was fabricated in order to have a witness (Baker) see Oswald AWAY from the steps and even the first floor near the time of the shooting. His (true) alibi was that he was "out on the steps to watch the P. Parade with Bill Shelley." (My paraphrase of the written interrogation notes that we have.)

Oswald didn't "mill around" after the assassination because he knew or suspected he was being set up. Plus he had apparently been instructed to meet someone at the theater.

Oswald did no go to the second floor after the assassination. He did, however, go there earlier to get a coke for his lunch well before the motorcade arrived.

And yes, a number of witnesses lied. Or stayed quiet while the FBI altered their statements. Likely they were told that there were rumors of this being an international incident and that the authorities were afraid WW3 might result if they didn't find a crazy gunman to pin the blame on. Oswald was already dead anyway, do the patriotic thing and never mention again that you saw Oswald on the steps during the shots.

 

[David Von Pein]

12 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The guys at ROKC, especially Bart Kamp, have debunked the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. I debunked it on my own as well.

That's ridiculous. The 2nd-Floor Lunchroom Encounter has not been "debunked" by anybody. Those who think they've debunked it are, as usual, merely engaging in more wishful thinking.

There is no doubt whatsoever, in the mind of a reasonable person who is capable of properly evaluating the evidence, that Marrion Baker positively did  encounter Lee Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom on Nov. 22.

More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2015/07/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-973.html

Edited July 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

The 2nd-Floor Lunchroom Encounter has not been "debunked" by anybody.

 

It was hard work and took me several months. It's debunked.

I had even CTers yelling at me because they liked the 2nd floor encounter. But I just followed the evidence. If you get hung up with your theory and don't continue following the evidence, you'll never determine the truth. The complete truth.

Just read Baker's first-day statement and you'll see why researchers smelled a rat.

Then read how Shelley's and Lovelady's  statements changed over time. Pay close attention to their timing regarding Gloria Calvery and how it changes, not to mention the location where Calvery and Shelley meet, which also changes.

There are four Big Lies in the official story:

1. Oswald shot Kennedy.
2. Oswald shot Tippit.
3. CE 399 hit Kennedy and Connally.
4. Oswald and Baker had a 2nd floor encounter.
5. Oswald was in Mexico City.

 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The guys at ROKC, especially Bart Kamp, have debunked the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. I debunked it on my own as well.

You have no choice, therefore, but to call the two men seen in the video below outright l-i-a-r-s. And you have no problem with such a (double) accusation, Sandy? ....

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

My above question was actually answered 5 years ago by Sandy. It's a very lame answer, IMO, but here it is anyway:

"David, I believe that Roy Truly was a CIA asset and was instructed to do what he did. Marrion Baker was probably told that his lies were necessary to prevent WW3, or some other national security nonsense. He was doing his patriotic duty." -- Sandy Larsen; Dec. 19, 2017

 

Edited July 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Cory Santos]

Sorry Sandy.  I can’t buy that.   I don’t think all these people were lying.  I think the second floor encounter had to happen based on the evidence.  

[Sandy Larsen]

1 minute ago, Cory Santos said:

Sorry Sandy.  I can’t buy that.   I don’t think all these people were lying.  I think the second floor encounter had to happen based on the evidence.  

 

What evidence?

 

[Cory Santos]

10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

What evidence?

 

Sandy, you have to ignore two witnesses, one a police officer.  Then you ignore the co-worker who before the assassination saw him in the second floor eating.  Him being there actually supports the point that he was not on the sixth floor and racing down the stairs afterwards which is noted by two ladies on the stairs after the assassination whom I tend to believe.  I could go on but I see nothing that debunks him being on the second floor after the assassination. Feel free to change my opinion.   

[David Von Pein]

The idea that the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter never took place at all is simply CTer desperation in full-fledged panic mode.

It was certainly possible for a person to stare right at Lee Harvey Oswald and guess his AGE and WEIGHT incorrectly. And Marrion L. Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit is the PROOF that that did happen.

And, as fate would have it, Howard Brennan said the sixth-floor assassin was around 30 years of age and weighed about 165 to 175 pounds....perfectly matching Baker's inaccurate guesses with respect to the real Lee Harvey Oswald.

And Mr. Oswald just happened to be a man whose fingerprints (and bullet shells) littered the exact same place where Brennan saw his "30-year-old, 165- to 175-pound" assassin in the window firing a rifle.

How 'bout that for coincidence?

Edited July 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

18 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

The idea that the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter never took place at all is simply CTer desperation in full-fledged panic mode.

It was certainly possible for a person to stare right at Lee Harvey Oswald and guess his AGE and WEIGHT incorrectly. And Marrion L. Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit is the PROOF that that did happen.

And, as fate would have it, Howard Brennan said the sixth-floor assassin was around 30 years of age and weighed about 165 to 175 pounds....perfectly matching Baker's inaccurate guesses with respect to the real Lee Harvey Oswald.

And Mr. Oswald just happened to be a man whose fingerprints (and bullet shells) littered the exact same place where Brennan saw his "30-year-old, 165- to 175-pound" assassin in the window firing a rifle.

How 'bout that for coincidence?

No second-floor encounter is reality if you study the case and don't just repeat the warren omission l-i-e-s. 

[David Von Pein]

On 7/10/2022 at 12:52 AM, Ron Bulman said:

No second-floor encounter is reality if you study the case and don't just repeat the warren omission l-i-e-s. 

To think that someone within "Officialdom" somehow got all of these various people (Lovelady, Shelley, Baker, Truly, and maybe more?) to tell a bunch of lies just so the official "patsy framers" could say the second-floor lunchroom encounter took place is something that I think all reasonable people would consider to be a totally FANTASTIC [i.e., fanciful] idea. And it's a fantastic idea that I don't think the conspiracy theorists have nearly enough support for.

Also....

Why is it that so many people who weren't charged with committing two murders (e.g., Marrion Baker, Roy Truly, Ruth Paine, Buell Frazier, et al) are accused of being l-i-a-r-s in the JFK case, and the person who was charged with two murders is treated with kid gloves by so many conspiracists? Isn't that also a rather "fantastic" idea? (I think it is.)

Edited July 31, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

26 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

Sandy, you have to ignore two witnesses, one a police officer.  Then you ignore the co-worker who before the assassination saw him in the second floor eating.  Him being there actually supports the point that he was not on the sixth floor and racing down the stairs afterwards which is noted by two ladies on the stairs after the assassination whom I tend to believe.  I could go on but I see nothing that debunks him being on the second floor after the assassination. Feel free to change my opinion.   

 

Cory,

First of all, Officer Baker's first-day statement doesn't have him going to the 2nd floor lunchroom and seeing Oswald inside. Instead, he says he encountered some guy on the "third or fourth floor." And that guy was just in the hallway, not in any room. So, wrong floor, wrong place, plus wrong description.

So there is one WC li@r.

And if Baker lied, so did Truly. (Not a big surprise since it is known he lied about other things.)

So there's another WC li@r.

The two ladies said they went down the steps right after the shots, yet they didn't hear any footsteps... they should have heard Oswald's footsteps if he had run down from 6th floor. How did the WC fix this problem? The WC claimed the two ladies actually waited for a while before coming down the steps, and so missed Oswald's footsteps. The WC "proved" this by having Shelley and Lovelady testify that they waited on the TSBD steps for three minutes (this is important), at which time Gloria Calvery arrived there and told them JFK had been shot, at which time they went to the railroad yard and went inside the west entrance of the TSBD. At which time they saw the ladies come out the stairway. So that proves the ladies came down more than 3 minutes late, and the WC is happy.

Problem is, Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies contradict what we see in the Darnell film. Gloria Calvery, who they testified took three minutes for her to arrive at the steps after the shots, was actually there within 20 seconds! (We can see her talking to Lovelady.) She arrived even before officer Baker did! Well, there goes that three minute delay that was designed to discredit the two ladies!

But the point is that they lied in their WC testimonies too.

So there are two more WC li@rs.

 

BTW Oswald ate on the main (ground level) floor, not on the second floor. So I don't know about a witness seeing him eat on the second floor.

Now if you really want to be convinced, read Bart Kamp's Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter. My understanding is that it is extremely thorough and very convincing. I didn't read it because my own investigation was enough for me to be convinced.

 

[Ron Bulman]

14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

To think that someone within "Officialdom" somehow got all of these various people (Lovelady, Shelley, Baker, Truly, and maybe more?) to tell a bunch of lies just so the official "patsy framers" could say the second-floor lunchroom encounter took place is something that I think all reasonable people would consider to be a totally FANTASTIC idea. And it's a fantastic idea that I don't think the conspiracy theorists have nearly enough support for.

Also....

Why is it that so many people who weren't charged with committing two murders (e.g., Billy Lovelady, Bill Shelley, Marrion Baker, et al) are accused of being l-i-a-r-s in the JFK case, and the person who was charged with two murders is treated with kid gloves by so many conspiracists? Isn't that also a rather "fantastic" idea? (I think it is.)

Whose Brandon?

[David Von Pein]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

So I don't know about a witness seeing him eat on the second floor.

You're unfamiliar with Carolyn Arnold's story? ....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Carolyn+Arnold

Edited July 10, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

7 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

[Who's] Brandon?

Huh? What are you talking about? I never mentioned anybody named Brandon.

Edited July 10, 2022 by David Von Pein