Message From David Von Pein

[Sean Coleman]

….mmmmmm…..not convinced D

[Pete Mellor]

6 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The FBI had these photos and said they were too smudged for identification. Clearly, they were not.This makes me suspect the prints were not Oswald's. 

When a fingerprint examiner makes an identification, it is standard that he creates some charts matching up the suspect's print with the print found at the crime scene, or on the weapon. That Scalice did not do that, and that he instead used his newfound fame to push right-wing conspiracy theories, should lead us to question his identification of Oswald's print on the trigger guard. It should be noted, moreover, that Frontline contacted George Bonebrake, who was at that time the FBI's top fingerprint examiner (and the guy who found James Earl Ray's print on the rifle found by the rooming house) and he refused to ID the print as Oswald's print. 

Thanks for that Pat.  In 'JFK First Day Evidence' the Scalice info is just an author's note at the end of the chapter.  It states, "Although the trigger-housing fingerprints were extremely faint and barely distinguishable and partially distorted a positive identification of LHO was made by Scalice.

I think you & Jim D have shot this down in flames.

[Pete Mellor]

21 hours ago, Paul Cummings said:

It's normal procedure to go to the morgue in the middle of the night to get the suspects finger/palm prints after you had him in jail? TMWKK

Paul, the Livingston/Savage book states Sunday night, no time given.  It doesn't say 'middle of the night'.  Could have been Sunday evening.  The pics and prints were taken post autopsy, but prior to Oswald being prepared for burial.  Livingston describes this as a routine assignment for the Crime Lab.  It's written in the book that this procedure was "the chain of evidence to verify the fact that the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby and buried in Fort Worth was the same Oswald who was in police custody charged with the murder of two people."

Yeah I know, with the multitude of chain of custody anomalies in this case, they have to legally prove that Oswald was dead!

[Mark Tyler]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

The person who has been labeled "Prayer Man" might very well be lurking in some of the other pictures and videos that I have on my websites. It's especially hard to know, though, because the PM figure could conceivably be almost anybody in any of the Dealey Plaza photos. My goodness, there's even been debate about whether the PM figure is a man or a woman.

Hi David, I completely agree with you, the so called Prayer Man is so visually ambiguous it could be anyone (perhaps with the exception of LHO who would surely have been noticed by the others on the steps, especially Frazier?).  As you suggest, this may even be a woman, and be a misgendering! (perhaps just like the black dog man, who was probably a woman, according to Marilyn Sitzman).

If it was a woman, I would say it was a slightly shorter, fuller figured lady with shorter hair, wearing a mid-dark top, with short sleeves.  Perhaps like this lady in the foreground of this photo, seen from the rear (who also seems to be adopting a prayer like arm holding position):

Ignore the red arrow, that's someone else!

By the way, welcome back to the forum!

[Paul Cummings]

5 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

Paul, the Livingston/Savage book states Sunday night, no time given.  It doesn't say 'middle of the night'.  Could have been Sunday evening.  The pics and prints were taken post autopsy, but prior to Oswald being prepared for burial.  Livingston describes this as a routine assignment for the Crime Lab.  It's written in the book that this procedure was "the chain of evidence to verify the fact that the Oswald killed by Jack Ruby and buried in Fort Worth was the same Oswald who was in police custody charged with the murder of two people."

Yeah I know, with the multitude of chain of custody anomalies in this case, they have to legally prove that Oswald was dead!

Hi Pete, hope all is well with you. I was using sarcasm about the morgue and finger/palm prints based upon "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" and the funeral home director. It wasn't a dig at you but the situation of getting Oswald's finger and palm prints. 

[David Von Pein]

Hi Mark!

In the same photo you posted above, I can see two other possible "Prayer Man" candidates---the two young men I've drawn arrows to. Is there any reason why either of these two guys couldn't be PM?

You see, the PM possibilities are almost endless.

Edited July 8, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Mark Tyler]

5 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Hi Mark!

In the same photo you posted above, I can see two other possible "Prayer Man" candidates---the two young men I've drawn arrows to. Is there any reason why either of these two guys couldn't be PM?

You see, the PM possibilities are almost endless.

Indeed David, the field is wide open on this one!

Both guys you identify seem about the right shorter height, although I think the long sleeves on the left would rule him out.

[Pete Mellor]

9 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Hi Pete, hope all is well with you. I was using sarcasm about the morgue and finger/palm prints based upon "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" and the funeral home director. It wasn't a dig at you but the situation of getting Oswald's finger and palm prints. 

I'm fine Paul. 😀 Sure, the funeral home FBI inky hands stuff is another weird episode!

[David Von Pein]

15 minutes ago, Mark Tyler said:

Both guys you identify seem about the right shorter height, although I think the long sleeves on the left would rule him out.

But what, then, do the CTers do with Oswald's long-sleeve shirt? If PM is Oswald, then PM should be wearing the brown long-sleeve shirt he wore to work on 11/22, right?

Plus, the PM image is so incredibly crappy, the PM person could very well be wearing a long-sleeve shirt (IMO). I think the sun could be reflecting on PM's amazingly lengthy (?) right forearm, making that forearm look lighter than other parts of his (or her) body which are in the shade.

(This is a photo by Duncan MacRae....)

Edited July 8, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Mark Tyler]

21 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But what, then, do the CTers do with Oswald's long-sleeve shirt? If PM is Oswald, then PM should be wearing the brown long-sleeve shirt he wore to work on 11/22, right?

Plus, the PM image is so incredibly crappy, the PM person could very well be wearing a long-sleeve shirt (IMO). I think the sun could be reflecting on PM's amazingly lengthy (?) right forearm, making that forearm look lighter than other parts of his (or her) body which are in the shade.

(This is a photo by Duncan MacRae....)

The sun could indeed be lighting the forearm more brightly, which might explain what we see in the image.  The only other thing I would mention is that the flesh tones in the face are very close to those we see in the forearm, which are both much lighter than the darker shirt.

However, as you say, the image is of a terrible quality and you wouldn't want to bet your life on a positive ID one way or the other.

[David Von Pein]

13 minutes ago, Mark Tyler said:

The sun could indeed be lighting the forearm more brightly, which might explain what we see in the image.  The only other thing I would mention is that the flesh tones in the face are very close to those we see in the forearm, which are both much lighter than the darker shirt.

After my last post, I went to Robin Unger's excellent photo archive and downloaded this version of the "PM" picture (taken from Jimmy Darnell's WBAP-TV news film), and now I think I've changed my mind about the "forearm in sunlight" theory. When looking at the whole image, I don't think PM's arm is in sunlight at all. We can see where the shade/shadow ends, and we can see the sunlight shining on Buell Frazier's chest in this image. But it doesn't look like the forearm of "Prayer Man" is in the sunlight at all. All of PM seems to be in the shade.

But I'm wondering still about something I brought up before....

If PM is Oswald (as many CTers believe), then did he roll up his sleeves when he was filmed by James Darnell out on the steps? Because we know Oswald wore that brown/rusty long-sleeved shirt to work on 11/22. And we also know (or at least I am convinced of it) that LHO did not have his sleeves rolled up when Mrs. Bledsoe saw Oswald on the bus just a few minutes after the "PM" image was captured (because Bledsoe saw the hole in the elbow area of Oswald's brown shirt, which means his sleeves were not rolled up at that time).

Anyway, I'm just curious as to what CTers are thinking regarding Oswald and his shirt sleeves in relation to what we see in the Prayer Man image.

Click to enlarge this image to 1999px:

Edited July 9, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

@Mark Tyler:

In keeping with the new (2019) rule here at this forum about not posting the comments of other forum members at my website without first gaining express permission to do so....

Is it okay with you, Mark, if I copy your posts in this thread over to my website (on my "Prayer Man" page)?

Thanks.

Edited July 9, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

I was looking at Buell Wesley Frazier's Facebook page, and I noticed the following post written by Mr. Frazier in March of 2021 concerning the topic of "Prayer Man":

"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021
 

[Ron Bulman]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I was looking at Buell Wesley Frazier's Facebook page, and I noticed the following post written by Mr. Frazier in March of 2021 concerning the topic of "Prayer Man":

"To answer the question about Prayer Man: I have been looking at this all day, and I can tell you this: I 100% have no idea who that person is. I can also tell you 100% that is not Lee Harvey Oswald. First, Lee was not out there. I know that to be true. Second, for anyone who thinks Prayer Man is Lee, the individual has a much larger frame than Lee." -- Buell Wesley Frazier; March 28, 2021
 

Some believe Wes's handler is CIA asset Hugh Aynesworth.  They did appear together at the Irving Public Library prior to the Dealy Plaza occupation on the 50th anniversary in 2013.  There is a lot more to this.

[Greg Doudna]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

But I'm wondering still about something I brought up before....

If PM is Oswald (as many CTers believe), then did he roll up his sleeves when he was filmed by James Darnell out on the steps? Because we know Oswald wore that brown/rusty long-sleeved shirt to work on 11/22. And we also know (or at least I am convinced of it) that LHO did not have his sleeves rolled up when Mrs. Bledsoe saw Oswald on the bus just a few minutes after the "PM" image was captured (because Bledsoe saw the hole in the elbow area of Oswald's brown shirt, which means his sleeves were not rolled up at that time).

Anyway, I'm just curious as to what CTers are thinking regarding Oswald and his shirt sleeves in relation to what we see in the Prayer Man image.

Welcome David. On this, "[TSBD employee Sandra] Styles recalled years later: 'The workers [like Oswald] all wore jeans and work shirts with their shirt sleeves rolled up. Some would wear khakis or other kinds of work pants.'" (Peterson and Zachry, The Lone Star Speaks [2020], p. 194).

From separate argument Oswald left the TSBD wearing his medium-gray jacket (https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27754-the-jackets-as-exculpation-of-oswald-as-the-tippit-killer-an-analysis/). 

Speaking from my own experience as one who commonly wears long-sleeved shirts with sleeves rolled up, before I put on a jacket I unroll the sleeves before putting on a (long-sleeved) jacket. 

However I believe analysis of others is correct that Mary Bledsoe, while she did see and recognize Oswald, was a hopeless witness, identifying the shirt being shown her with the shirt (with the tear or hole in the elbow) the FBI had shown her in an earlier questioning. In any case the argument is strong that Oswald was wearing a maroon reddish colored shirt that morning until changing into the brown shirt at the rooming house. So Mary Bledsoe's witness testimony was just confused.