Oswald's Light-Colored Jacket

[James DiEugenio]

Let me give an example of getting a fix on New Orleans.

See, for a long time, through people like Melanson and Garrison, most people thought the Clinton episode--a very important piece of evidence--took place just in Clinton.  

And, in fact, Posner makes a huge error--nothing uncommon-- in his book on this by abiding by that.

When I drove the hundred miles north of New Orleans to get up there in about 1994, and I tried to trace Oswald's steps, I saw that this was not the case.  There was not one village, but two.  There was Clinton and Jackson. Two separate entities about ten miles apart. This changed things because it made the testimony  more credible, since Oswald followed the directions of people like McGehee, Morgan and Palmer to the tee.  And he had to have a car driving him around.

My point being that you could not really ascertain this unless you went up there.  I then made a speech about this at a COPA conference in Washington which went over pretty well, since there was a lot of  new information in it.  

[Bill Brown]

Warren Commission Exhibit 162: 

[Greg Doudna]

On 7/11/2022 at 10:12 AM, Bill Brown said:

Nothing is illogical about Courson's account (above).  What is illogical is your belief that it somehow means that this is evidence or proof that Oswald was inside the theater as well as the man who resembled Oswald who had just killed a police officer.

Oswald first went up to the balcony.  There were teenagers up there and he decided to then go down to the main lobby, where he was later arrested after a scuffle.  So what?

That misrepresents me Bill. I do believe the person Courson said he met is a different person than Oswald, however I do not believe Courson's account (who thought they were the same person) proves, i.e. "is evidence or proof" for that that. As you misrepresent me above.

In your second paragraph you give a different interpretation, in which you argue Courson was correct: it was Oswald Courson saw coming down from the balcony. Viewed in isolation, Courson's account could be interpreted either way, the way I read it or the way you read it, in terms of the reality underlying Courson's account.

Now I will explain other information that I believe weighs in favor of Courson's man not being Oswald (though I believe it very plausible that the man Courson saw was the killer of Tippit).  

• Start with Oswald seated in the main ground level of the theatre (and when I refer to "Oswald" here forward, this is who I mean, the known Oswald on the ground level). No theatre patron or theatre staff person inside the theatre saw him in the balcony. No theatre patron or theatre staff person saw him come down from the balcony.
• Theatre patron Jack Davis, in among other venues his oral history for the Sixth Floor Museum which I have listened to, told of Oswald moving around inside the seating on the ground level, and has said that when Oswald briefly sat next to Davis, that was during the opening credits of the film or thereabouts, much earlier than the time the killer of Tippit went from the street past Julia Postal's ticket window and up into the balcony. Jack Davis's account appears incompatible with an interpretation that the man met by deputy sheriff Courson coming down from the balcony was Oswald--because by Courson's account he only went to the Texas Theatre in response to police radio calling in the Julia Postal report of the suspicious man (whom you and I both stipulate and agree was the killer of Tippit) going into the theatre ca. 1:40 pm. Davis's account of Oswald on the main level appears inconsistent with the Courson man being Oswald.
• Usher Burroughs has also said, in agreement with Jack Davis's account, that Oswald was in the main seating area, seated at more than one position, and came out and bought popcorn from Burroughs (Oswald going out one back door and returning in the aisle of another is also the story of Davis, in agreement with Burroughs). So that's two.
• There is no other information from any of the other patrons in the theatre that day, nor the man who took the tickets that day (general manager Callahan), in any disagreement with the witness accounts just noted of Davis and Burroughs, concerning Oswald's earlier presence in the theatre than the man Courson saw coming down from the balcony. (See the next point on Julia Postal.)
• Julia Postal who sold tickets that day (following which Callahan took the tickets at the door), it is reported that when she was interviewed later and asked if she had not sold a ticket to Oswald, that she burst into tears, and then calming down asked again again burst into tears. Since that is hearsay and in any case could be interpreted in different ways it is not probative of much. But since there is no other theatre staff or theatre patron saying differently, it does suggest some ambiguity. I believe Julia Postal in her WC testimony was asked if she had seen the arrested Oswald before she saw him arrested and she said she didn't think so, an answer in the negative but expressed in a somewhat less-certain form than clear "no". But there is the story of her tears when asked the question more directly by the later interviewer, suggesting possible ambiguity on the point.

Brewer of course did identify the killer of Tippit who went up into the balcony, with Oswald, and Courson said he thought the man he met coming down from the balcony (who may have been the killer of Tippit) probably was Oswald. 

So this is a case of conflicting scenarios depending on how individual witness testimonies are assessed and interpreted. With Brewer and Courson I believe the weight of the theatre witness testimonies favor that Brewer and Courson misidentified some other man as Oswald. Even if you do not agree, I hope you will see that that is not, as you term it, "NOT logical at all". 

(I think you are confusing the meaning of "logical" with what I think you mean: "plausible", not the same meaning.)

To be clear, the reason I think the killer of Tippit (who went into the balcony, and likely was the man Courson met coming down from the balcony) and Oswald (seated in the main seating area and who I do not believe ever was in the balcony) were distinct individuals, two persons and not the same person, I do not claim is proven by, as distinguished from compatible with, the testimonies of Davis or Burroughs in themselves, since any one witness's account can be partly or wholly in error or often interpreted in more than one way. I draw that from a larger argument involving other factors, just as you draw from other factors in assuming they were the same individual.

As for why the killer of Tippit went into the Texas Theatre, I believe the answer to that is quite simple: intent to kill Oswald.

Oswald went to the Texas Theatre to meet someone. The killer of Tippit knew Oswald was there. The killer of Tippit intended to kill Oswald in the Texas Theatre. The arrival of police interrupted both of those intentions. My reconstruction.

I think the killer of Tippit most likely left the Texas Theatre by simply walking out a door and melting into bystanders, after passing Courson on that stairs, either before other officers arrived and sealed the building or after other officers arrived and with permission of officers. (I do not believe the killer of Tippit was the man taken by police out the rear of the theatre minutes after Oswald's arrest, theatre patron Applin being taken downtown to make a witness statement, who had nothing to do with either Oswald or the killing of Tippit.)

Edited July 19, 2022 by Greg Doudna

[Greg Doudna]

Also, I am not certain deputy sheriff Courson was not corrupt and that his account is necessarily truthful in all particulars. Long story, but an argument for elsewhere. 

[Derek Thibeault]

On 7/18/2022 at 2:38 PM, Pat Speer said:

At one point, I looked into this. While people like Lane, Lifton, Groden, and Livingstone made some money off the case, it wasn't much in comparison to the money made by Posner, Bugliosi, O'Reilly, and Swanson. Well, who's Swanson you might ask? Swanson is James Swanson, who wrote a series of young adult best-sellers detailing the assassination of Lincoln and the hunt for Booth. He wrote a dumbed-down re-telling of the assassination entitled End of Days (which relied almost entirely on the Warren Report) and was able to convince a prominent publisher to front him 1 million for his efforts. It was published to no acclaim and little audience, along with a heavily illustrated version of the book entitled The President has been Shot!. 

This last bit is quite telling, IMO. I doubt any prominent writer with a CT slant could get a million up front to write a book pushing the CT angle, although it would almost certainly sell more than Swanson's garbage. 

Perhaps Jim D can share with us the advance they got for his new book. This had a movie tie-in. And an association with Oliver Stone. Even so, I'd bet it was far less than 1 million. 

I did like Swanson's book Manhunt on the hunt for Booth but i wouldn't trust him on JFK. Also has does O'Reilly get to make money off this...I refuse to read anything by him. I don't know how you career researchers do it - I bet Garrison lost money. I am just glad all of you are still in the hunt.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, Derek Thibeault said:

I did like Swanson's book Manhunt on the hunt for Booth but i wouldn't trust him on JFK. Also has does O'Reilly get to make money off this...I refuse to read anything by him. I don't know how you career researchers do it - I bet Garrison lost money. I am just glad all of you are still in the hunt.

Yes, it's sickening. O'Reilly lent his name to a book mostly written by a hack, and then promoted the heck out of it on his show. Nat Geo I think it was then bought the "film rights" or whatever and made a TV movie starring Rob Lowe as Kennedy. By my estimation, O'Reilly not only made more money off his "efforts" than any CT, but more than Bugliosi, Posner, etc. 

And the irony/sickening thing about it is that I don't know one LN who takes it seriously and thinks it anything more than a piece of crap. 

[Derek Thibeault]

47 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Yes, it's sickening. O'Reilly lent his name to a book mostly written by a hack, and then promoted the heck out of it on his show. Nat Geo I think it was then bought the "film rights" or whatever and made a TV movie starring Rob Lowe as Kennedy. By my estimation, O'Reilly not only made more money off his "efforts" than any CT, but more than Bugliosi, Posner, etc. 

And the irony/sickening thing about it is that I don't know one LN who takes it seriously and thinks it anything more than a piece of crap. 

That's right, that crappy movie with Rob Lowe forgot about that. Couldn't watch it. Dreck.

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Nat Geo I think it was then bought the "film rights" or whatever and made a TV movie starring Rob Lowe as Kennedy. By my estimation, O'Reilly not only made more money off his "efforts" than any CT, but more than Bugliosi, Posner, etc. 

And the irony/sickening thing about it is that I don't know one LN who takes it seriously and thinks it anything more than a piece of crap. 

I totally agree with you on the O'Reilly film. I wrote a little mini-review of the "Killing Kennedy" hunk of junk in November of 2013:

"Killing Kennedy [the 2013 TV movie] was absolutely horrible. While watching it, I had the feeling I was sitting through a non-stop series of mini movie trailers. That's the way it felt to me anyway. Short little scenes. Nothing fleshed out. And too many errors in the details to possibly mention them all. One of which was: They actually had pictures of Oswald visiting the Mexico City embassies. They just decided to invent some pictures that never existed, and then Hosty shows the pictures to Oswald after his arrest. A most curious fairy tale there. .... Too bad, too. Because Bill O'Reilly does have the bottom-line facts correct -- Oswald killed Kennedy and Tippit, and LHO took a shot at General Walker too. It's just a shame that the "Killing Kennedy" filmmakers tried to jam a six-hour story into ninety minutes." -- DVP; Nov. 2013

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/10/killing-kennedy-by-bill-oreilly.html

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Gil Jesus]

On 7/8/2022 at 3:34 PM, Bill Brown said:

Housekeeper Earlene Roberts, to a radio reporter on the afternoon of the assassination, stated that Oswald was wearing a "short gray coat" as he left the rooming house.  She told the FBI that she remembered Oswald putting on a jacket and zipping it up as he went out the front door, adding that it was the type of jacket that zips up in the front.

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

Domingo Benavides, passing by in his pickup truck, saw Tippit's patrol car stopped near the curb and stated that the officer (Tippit) was talking to a man on foot.  Benavides heard the shots and saw the killer run from the scene.  Benavides testified to the Warren Commission that the killer was wearing a light-beige jacket, and that the jacket was lightweight.

William Scoggins, sitting in his cab (facing north on Patton towards the intersection with Tenth Street), was eating lunch when he noticed Tippit's patrol car travel from west to east on Tenth Street, crossing through the intersection with Patton.  Scoggins saw the patrol car come to a stop and noticed the officer having a conversation with a man who was walking on the sidewalk.  Scoggins heard the shots, looked up and saw the man running towards his cab.  Scoggins got out of his cab and hid beside it as the cop-killer passed.  He (Scoggins) testified that the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) was wearing a jacket.

Barbara Davis was inside her house on Tenth Street (400 East Tenth St.) at the corner of Patton Avenue when she heard the gun shots.  She went to her front door and noticed a man (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) cutting across her front yard, heading towards Patton with a gun in his hands.  She testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer had on a dark coat as he cut across her yard.

Virginia Davis was inside the same house on Tenth Street as was her sister-in-law, Barbara, when she heard the shots.  Virginia went to the door and saw a man cutting across the yard with a gun in his hands.  Virginia testified to the Warren Commission that the man (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Ted Callaway was on the front porch of his office near the alley between Tenth and Jefferson when he heard the shots come from the vicinity of Tenth Street.  He saw a man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cutting across the yard of the house on the corner (Barbara and Virginia Davis) and noticed William Scoggins ducking beside the cab as the man passed, running down Patton from Tenth, holding a gun in his hands.  Callaway stated that the man had on a light tannish-gray windbreaker jacket.  Callaway testified to the Warren Commission that CE-162 (the jacket found on the ground under a car at the Texaco lot) looked like the jacket that the man was wearing as he was running from the scene.

Sam Guinyard was on Patton Ave. when he heard the shots.  Like the others, Guinyard saw the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cut across the yard of the Davis house on the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Guinyard testified that the man was running down Patton with a gun in his hands.  Guinyard testified to the Warren Commission that Oswald was wearing sort of a light-gray-looking jacket as he ran from the scene.

Warren Reynolds was inside the office at Reynolds Motor Company, located on the corner of Patton and Jefferson.  Reynolds saw a man running down Patton with a gun in his hands and turn the corner onto Jefferson.   Reynolds stated that he followed the man, who he believed in his own mind was Lee Oswald, and saw him go behind the Texaco Station on Jefferson.

A light colored jacket (CE-162) was found on the ground under a car in the parking lot behind the Texaco station.

Johnny Brewer was working in his shoe shop on Jefferson Boulevard.  He noticed a man duck into the recessed area of the storefront, looking nervous and appearing to avoid the police cars that were racing up and down Jefferson with sirens blaring.  Brewer stated that the man, who he identified as Lee Oswald, was NOT wearing a jacket.

Why did Lee Oswald ditch his jacket?

https://gil-jesus.com/oswalds-jacket/

Edited July 21, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Gil Jesus]

On 7/8/2022 at 3:34 PM, Bill Brown said:

Housekeeper Earlene Roberts, to a radio reporter on the afternoon of the assassination, stated that Oswald was wearing a "short gray coat" as he left the rooming house.  She told the FBI that she remembered Oswald putting on a jacket and zipping it up as he went out the front door, adding that it was the type of jacket that zips up in the front.

Helen Markham, standing at the northwest corner of Tenth and Patton, testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a short jacket that was open in the front and was grayish-tan in color.

Domingo Benavides, passing by in his pickup truck, saw Tippit's patrol car stopped near the curb and stated that the officer (Tippit) was talking to a man on foot.  Benavides heard the shots and saw the killer run from the scene.  Benavides testified to the Warren Commission that the killer was wearing a light-beige jacket, and that the jacket was lightweight.

William Scoggins, sitting in his cab (facing north on Patton towards the intersection with Tenth Street), was eating lunch when he noticed Tippit's patrol car travel from west to east on Tenth Street, crossing through the intersection with Patton.  Scoggins saw the patrol car come to a stop and noticed the officer having a conversation with a man who was walking on the sidewalk.  Scoggins heard the shots, looked up and saw the man running towards his cab.  Scoggins got out of his cab and hid beside it as the cop-killer passed.  He (Scoggins) testified that the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) was wearing a jacket.

Barbara Davis was inside her house on Tenth Street (400 East Tenth St.) at the corner of Patton Avenue when she heard the gun shots.  She went to her front door and noticed a man (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) cutting across her front yard, heading towards Patton with a gun in his hands.  She testified to the Warren Commission that the cop-killer had on a dark coat as he cut across her yard.

Virginia Davis was inside the same house on Tenth Street as was her sister-in-law, Barbara, when she heard the shots.  Virginia went to the door and saw a man cutting across the yard with a gun in his hands.  Virginia testified to the Warren Commission that the man (who she positively identified as Lee Oswald) had on a light-brown-tan jacket.

Ted Callaway was on the front porch of his office near the alley between Tenth and Jefferson when he heard the shots come from the vicinity of Tenth Street.  He saw a man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cutting across the yard of the house on the corner (Barbara and Virginia Davis) and noticed William Scoggins ducking beside the cab as the man passed, running down Patton from Tenth, holding a gun in his hands.  Callaway stated that the man had on a light tannish-gray windbreaker jacket.  Callaway testified to the Warren Commission that CE-162 (the jacket found on the ground under a car at the Texaco lot) looked like the jacket that the man was wearing as he was running from the scene.

Sam Guinyard was on Patton Ave. when he heard the shots.  Like the others, Guinyard saw the man (who he positively identified as Lee Oswald) cut across the yard of the Davis house on the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Guinyard testified that the man was running down Patton with a gun in his hands.  Guinyard testified to the Warren Commission that Oswald was wearing sort of a light-gray-looking jacket as he ran from the scene.

Warren Reynolds was inside the office at Reynolds Motor Company, located on the corner of Patton and Jefferson.  Reynolds saw a man running down Patton with a gun in his hands and turn the corner onto Jefferson.   Reynolds stated that he followed the man, who he believed in his own mind was Lee Oswald, and saw him go behind the Texaco Station on Jefferson.

A light colored jacket (CE-162) was found on the ground under a car in the parking lot behind the Texaco station.

Johnny Brewer was working in his shoe shop on Jefferson Boulevard.  He noticed a man duck into the recessed area of the storefront, looking nervous and appearing to avoid the police cars that were racing up and down Jefferson with sirens blaring.  Brewer stated that the man, who he identified as Lee Oswald, was NOT wearing a jacket.

Why did Lee Oswald ditch his jacket?

Can we get any sources on this ? 

[David Von Pein]

On 7/8/2022 at 3:34 PM, Bill Brown said:

Housekeeper Earlene Roberts, to a radio reporter on the afternoon of the assassination, stated that Oswald was wearing a "short gray coat" as he left the rooming house.  She told the FBI that she remembered Oswald putting on a jacket and zipping it up as he went out the front door, adding that it was the type of jacket that zips up in the front.

 

Gil Jesus said:

Quote

Can we get any sources on this?

I don't think I've got a radio report featuring any interview with Earlene Roberts (if I ever find one, I'll post it here), but I do have a video with Mrs. Roberts saying that Oswald left the roominghouse on November 22 wearing a "short coat". (But she didn't say "short GRAY coat".)

The video source I'm speaking of is my video below (near the end). That brief piece with Mrs. Roberts at the end comes from the 1964 David Wolper theatrical motion picture "Four Days In November". And I've never been sure if that clip with Roberts was filmed by a local Dallas/Ft. Worth TV station or whether Mrs. Roberts was interviewed and filmed by Wolper's movie crew itself. I suspect it's the latter, but I'm just not sure. But here it is below. The first interview with Roberts on this video, btw, comes from the 1964 CBS-TV special program "November 22nd And The Warren Report" :

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Karl Hilliard]

At the end of the preceding Von Pein clip...It sounds to me like Ms Roberts said Oswald "went to his room-put on his dark coat-and went out to the bus stop".....

 There was no mention of a white jacket and then again the narrative that Oswald bolted out and immediately headed in the direction of the Tippit site is based on nothing but speculation.

[Bill Brown]

2 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

At the end of the preceding Von Pein clip...It sounds to me like Ms Roberts said Oswald "went to his room-put on his dark coat-and went out to the bus stop".....

 There was no mention of a white jacket and then again the narrative that Oswald bolted out and immediately headed in the direction of the Tippit site is based on nothing but speculation.

 

Even if the jacket/coat that Oswald put on while back in his room was rainbow-colored, why did he ditch it by the time he was seen on Jefferson in front of the shoe store?

 

[Bill Brown]

 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Karl Hilliard said:

At the end of the preceding Von Pein clip...It sounds to me like Ms Roberts said Oswald "went to his room-put on his dark coat-and went out to the bus stop".....

Roberts, in that video clip, clearly says "short coat", not "dark coat".