Lee Oswald - The Cop-Killer

[James DiEugenio]

Nice posts by you both.

I was getting a little lonely.  That sparse trail from REA to Seaport to George Rose has always  seemed suspicious to me.  As well as I could never find an interview of any employee at REA by the FBI. I mean can anyone prove me wrong?

Steve, that is rich with Barnes. Almost funny, Pending. 

 

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

The only documentary evidence that Oswald received the pistol is one invoice (#70638) saying the gun was shipped COD via REA to A. J. Hidell ... a copy (not the original) signed by an unknown/unidentified individual named "Paxton" with a witness signature signed 'D.F. Drittal'. Greg Parker has pointed out that, whoever did order this revolver from Seaport was playing an inside joke by claiming the name of the person who could vouch for the buyer was Drittal ... similar to the German phrase Dienst Fur Drittel - "on behalf of a third party."  Coincidentally, the NSA linguist John Hurt - possibly the person Oswald tried to call while in custody - married a Russian immigrant named Ana Drittel (a performing NY cellist).

 

Is there another document somewhere ? I don't see the name Paxton or DF Drittal signature on this one ? Perhaps there is a shipping invoice apart from the sales invoice ?

[James DiEugenio]

Jean Paul:

See Warren Report, p. 173.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Gene Kelly]

Jean Paul:

The Drittal witness name is on the mail order coupon, not the shipping invoice ... sorry for the confusion. Whomever filled this coupon out ordered a pistol, holster and ammunition, but then scratched out the last two items.  This coupon would not be mailed for another six weeks.

Peeling back the timeline and provenance of the revolver open up additional lines of inquiry. On January 3, 1963, George Rose and Co. of Los Angeles received a shipment of 99 handguns (including serial #V510210, the revolver of interest) from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods in Montreal, Canada.

We also see one of the first conflicts in the revolver’s provenance: The order received was for “.38 ST. W. 2” Bbl” for $29.95 while the pistol sent is described as “S & W .38 Special 2” Commando” ... but the item ordered, and the item shipped, are not one and the same. The use and whereabouts of this pistol - a weapon which supposedly Oswald spent more on than the rifle (and without ammunition) - remained invisible until November 22nd.

Several folks have pointed out that ordering guns by interstate mail is a strange way for a potential assassin to purchase his murder weapons; conversely, if one is investigating firms known to sell weapons illegally through the mail, a paper trail is precisely what is needed.  This throws a shadow of suspicion on the Dodd subcommittee, and some have speculated that Oswald was working for the subcommittee in some fashion.  Furthermore, in Texas anyone in 1963 could go to a gun shop and purchase a weapon untraceably over the counter. Only in interstate purchases did the law require identification, yet Oswald was ostensibly interested only in interstate purchases.

For a more comprehensive treatment of Oswald's erstwhile revolver, here are some valuable references to chase the story down:

1. David Josephs' October 2015 article: "The Rifle, The Backyard Photos & The Pistol" Part 3: in Kennedys and King
2. "Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Pistol from Seaport Traders" by John Armstrong
3. Jefferson Morley’s January 2013 article “Oswald thinks about buying a gun” in JFK Facts 
4. George Bailey's November 2009 blog Oswald's Mother and “Who Bought the Guns?”
5. May 2006 EF thread begun by Scott G. Edwards "The J.D. Tippit Shooting Evidence"
6. April 2018 EF thread by James DiEugenio "The Tippit Case in the New Millenium" 

Gene

[Richard Price]

I am always looking for links between involved parties in the assassination.  The possible association of LHO with the Dodd Committee makes sense to me.  It makes me wonder, who in the planning of the assassination, may have been aware of this and potentially use it to frame him with the very evidence he was developing as an agent for the committee.

[Bill Brown]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:35 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

That's not possible unless he was shot at the hospital.

Tippit's ambulance arrived at the hospital at 1:15, where he was pronounced dead on arrival. He was shot several minutes before that.

The time is according to hospital records, and corroborated by DPD records.

 

No.

 

J.C. Butler (the ambulance driver) showed the call sheet to George and Patricia Nash in 1964 (I think it was).  The call to send an ambulance to the scene of the shooting came in to the Dudley-Hughes Funeral Home (where the ambulance was located) at 1:18.  If the ambulance was not dispatched until 1:18, it certainly did not arrive at Methodist with the body at 1:15.

 

[Bill Brown]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:57 PM, James DiEugenio said:

So the obvious questions are: where did the jacket and the wallet come from?

These remain mysteries to this day.  

One--the jacket-- would be used as (dubious) evidence that Oswald was there at the scene of the murder.  The other would be discarded and not surface until decades later.

Even if the jacket (CE-162) was not Oswald's (it was), why did Oswald get rid of the jacket he was zipping up as he went out the door of the rooming house on Beckley by the time he arrived at Hardy's Shoes on Jefferson?

 

Mrs. ROBERTS: He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

 

Mrs. ROBERTS: Yes; it was a zipper jacket. How come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door.

 

Mr. BELIN: So you say he was about 5'9"?
Mr. BREWER: About 5'9".
Mr. BELIN: And about 150?
Mr. BREWER: And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN: Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER: No.

[Bill Brown]

On 7/15/2022 at 3:23 PM, Paul Cummings said:

If one believes Roger Craig that "Nash Rambler" (12:40PM) would be heading toward that area?

Roger Craig is a proven  l i a r.  Why would anyone believe him on anything related to 11.22.63?

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Bill Brown

[Bill Brown]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:06 PM, Gene Kelly said:

Vinny Gambini: Is it possible the two defendants entered the store, picked 22 specific items off of the shelves, had the clerk take money, make change, then leave. Then two different men drive up in a similar - Don't shake your head, I'm not done yet. Wait till you hear the whole thing, so you can understand this, now. Two different men drive up in a similar-looking car, go in, shoot the clerk, rob him, and then leave?

Mr. Tipton: No. They didn't have enough time.

Vinny Gambini: Well, how much time was they in the store? Mr. Tipton: Five minutes.

Vinny Gambini: Five minutes? Are you sure? Did you look at your watch?  Mr. Tipton: No.

Vinny Gambini: Oh, oh, oh, I'm sorry. You testified earlier that the boys went into the store, and you had just begun to make breakfast. You were just ready to eat, and you heard a gunshot. That's right, I'm sorry. So, obviously, it takes you five minutes to make breakfast. Mr. Tipton: That's right.

Vinny Gambini: Right, so you knew that. Uh, do you remember what you had?  Mr. Tipton: Eggs and grits.

Vinny Gambini: Eggs and grits. I like grits, too. How do you cook your grits? Do you like them regular, creamy or al dente? Mr. Tipton: Just regular, I guess. Vinny Gambini: Regular. Instant grits? Mr. Tipton: No self-respectin' Southerner uses instant grits. I take pride in my grits.

Vinny Gambini: So, Mr. Tipton, how could it take you five minutes to cook your grits, when it takes the entire grit-eating world twenty minutes?  Mr. Tipton: [a bit panicky] I don't know. I'm a fast cook, I guess.

Vinny Gambini: I'm sorry, I was all the way over here. I couldn't hear you. Did you say you were a fast cook? That's it?  Are we to believe that boiling water soaks into a grit faster in your kitchen than on any place on the face of the earth?

Mr. Tipton: I don't know.

Vinny Gambini: Well, perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist on your stove. Were these magic grits? I mean, did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?

 

[Bill Brown]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:44 PM, James DiEugenio said:

LOL, nice one Gene.

 

Sums up Bill and the Tippit case. Now let us get funnier, let us take a look at Croy.

 

That declaration of not knowing who gave an officer an important piece of evidence applies to Croy also. But before getting to that point, we should, as we did with Westbrook, review Croy’s Warren Commission testimony. And we should keep in mind that, as with Westbrook, the Commission never challenged Croy, nor tried to corroborate what he said.

First of all, Croy was not a regular officer. He was a reserve officer. He drove patrol car duty perhaps once a month. (WC 12, p. 195) On the day of the assassination, Croy said he was just off of Main street when he heard President Kennedy was shot.

Croy was just a few blocks from Dealey Plaza at this time. He then said that he drove to the nearby courthouse to see if the police might need some help. (WC 12, p. 200) Considering the circumstances, it is hard to believe that Croy had to ask this question, or that the police would say no if he did. But Croy said he could not recall whom he asked, and Commission counsel Burt Griffin did not probe the answer to Croy’s question on November 22, 1963. Croy added that, amid all the tumult going on a few blocks away, he decided to go home. He then said that he heard a call about an officer being shot.

As the reader can see, there really is no way so far to corroborate Croy’s whereabouts from the time of the assassination to the time of him arriving at the scene of the Tippit shooting. And Croy insisted he was the first policeman there. (WC 12, p. 201) From his description, once he was there, he talked to Helen Markham. But as Griffin questioned him about his discussion with Markham, a surprising admission came into the record. Croy claimed he did not file a report on his activities that day. Once Griffin elicited this piece of information, he just passed it by, making no comment or inquiry about it. Which is remarkable considering Croy’s insistence he was the first officer at the scene.

Let me get this straight.

 

First of all, I make no apologies for Croy.

 

But.... It's absolutely acceptable to you that Barrett makes no mention in any report of an Oswald/Hidell wallet at Tenth and Patton.... but it is highly suspicious to you that Croy makes no mention in any report of interviewing a witness on the scene.  Is that right?

[Bill Brown]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:46 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Can you imagine being the first officer on the scene of a homicide, talking to Markham, and not filing a report?

And Griffin does not bat an eyelash.

Can you imagine having a discussion about an Oswald/Hidell wallet at the scene of the homicide and not filing a report on it?

 

And DiEugenio does not bat an eyelash.

 

[Bill Brown]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:01 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Now, let us return to TIppit.  What did he do after driving off form the Gloco station?

Another piece of the millennium’s new evidence now enters the equation. Just a few moments after this, Tippit pulled over a car driven by insurance agent James Andrews. Andrews told a Dallas researcher that Tippit drove in front of him and cut him off on the 300 block of West Tenth. Tippit jumped out of his car, walked forward and inspected the space between the front and back seat. Perplexed, Andrews looked at the officer’s nameplate. Without saying anything, Tippit got back in his car and drove away. Andrews commented that Tippit “seemed to be very upset and agitated and acted wild” (McBride, p. 448)

Tippit was next reported at the Top Ten Records store at 338 West Jefferson Boulevard. Two witnesses, Dub Stark and Louis Cortinas, saw him there. Cortinas said that Tippit was in a hurry and asked people to move aside. Tippit, whom he knew fairly well, then commandeered the phone, called someone, and apparently did not get an answer. He then hung up and walked off, looking worried or upset about something. (McBride, p. 451) At around this time, 1:00 PM, the dispatcher called Tippit and got no answer.

As McBride comments, it seems logical to assume that—unless this was the first time he ever saw the viaduct—Tippit was waiting for someone to cross over by car or bus. He then actually did stop a car, apparently to look for someone hiding in the back. Frustrated at both places, he then tried to make a phone call in order to get further directions. Finally, he proceeded to his death at 10^th and Patton, driving his car very slowly, as if he were looking for someone. (WC 3, pp. 307, 324) In this new light, it is possible to see his death more fully and accurately than either Henry Hurt or Jim Garrison did.

---

I suppose it doesn't bother you in the slightest that we don't hear of Andrews telling this story until the early 90's.

 

I suppose it doesn't bother you in the slightest that we don't hear of Cortinas and/or Stark telling their story until 1981.

 

But somehow it's of grave concern to you that Jack Tatum isn't seeked out to tell his story until the mid 70's.

 

I find this to be hypocritical.

 

[Ron Bulman]

Seven posts in a row without objection.  And a Large emoji.  You must be right.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Jean Paul:

The Drittal witness name is on the mail order coupon, not the shipping invoice ... sorry for the confusion. Whomever filled this coupon out ordered a pistol, holster and ammunition, but then scratched out the last two items.  This coupon would not be mailed for another six weeks.

Peeling back the timeline and provenance of the revolver open up additional lines of inquiry. On January 3, 1963, George Rose and Co. of Los Angeles received a shipment of 99 handguns (including serial #V510210, the revolver of interest) from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods in Montreal, Canada.

We also see one of the first conflicts in the revolver’s provenance: The order received was for “.38 ST. W. 2” Bbl” for $29.95 while the pistol sent is described as “S & W .38 Special 2” Commando” ... but the item ordered, and the item shipped, are not one and the same. The use and whereabouts of this pistol - a weapon which supposedly Oswald spent more on than the rifle (and without ammunition) - remained invisible until November 22nd.

Several folks have pointed out that ordering guns by interstate mail is a strange way for a potential assassin to purchase his murder weapons; conversely, if one is investigating firms known to sell weapons illegally through the mail, a paper trail is precisely what is needed.  This throws a shadow of suspicion on the Dodd subcommittee, and some have speculated that Oswald was working for the subcommittee in some fashion.  Furthermore, in Texas anyone in 1963 could go to a gun shop and purchase a weapon untraceably over the counter. Only in interstate purchases did the law require identification, yet Oswald was ostensibly interested only in interstate purchases.

For a more comprehensive treatment of Oswald's erstwhile revolver, here are some valuable references to chase the story down:

1. David Josephs' October 2015 article: "The Rifle, The Backyard Photos & The Pistol" Part 3: in Kennedys and King
2. "Oswald Did NOT Purchase a Pistol from Seaport Traders" by John Armstrong
3. Jefferson Morley’s January 2013 article “Oswald thinks about buying a gun” in JFK Facts 
4. George Bailey's November 2009 blog Oswald's Mother and “Who Bought the Guns?”
5. May 2006 EF thread begun by Scott G. Edwards "The J.D. Tippit Shooting Evidence"
6. April 2018 EF thread by James DiEugenio "The Tippit Case in the New Millenium" 

Gene

Thanks, much appreciated !

JP

[Paul Cummings]

11 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Roger Craig is a proven  l i a r.  Why would anyone believe him on anything related to 11.22.63?

 

Three other witnesses along with Craig said Oswald got in the Nash Rambler.