Experimental Evidence

[Bill Fite]

I just watched the 'Death of the Magic Bullet Theory' video Vince Palamara posted on YouTube.  Thanks for that Mr Palamara.

I'm interested in looking at experimental evidence in the murder of JFK.

This could be either evidence for / against a conspiracy or LHO's guilt / innocence.  But... it would have to include the number of experiments run and the results - not anecdotal evidence such as the Carlos Hathcock quote that the Marines had tried to duplicate the lone gunman TSBD scenario and failed every time.  The number of tests is unknown.

A good example from that video:

• The test firings of the MC rifle into goat & human cadavers to experimentally simulate the Connally wounds to the rib and arm  -  100 trials with 100 bullets significantly deformed according to the ballistics expert who ran the tests & is quoted in the video.

Any suggestions of other experiments that were run in addition to the above would be appreciated.

 

 

[Pat Speer]

7 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

I just watched the 'Death of the Magic Bullet Theory' video Vince Palamara posted on YouTube.  Thanks for that Mr Palamara.

I'm interested in looking at experimental evidence in the murder of JFK.

This could be either evidence for / against a conspiracy or LHO's guilt / innocence.  But... it would have to include the number of experiments run and the results - not anecdotal evidence such as the Carlos Hathcock quote that the Marines had tried to duplicate the lone gunman TSBD scenario and failed every time.  The number of tests is unknown.

A good example from that video:

• The test firings of the MC rifle into goat & human cadavers to experimentally simulate the Connally wounds to the rib and arm  -  100 trials with 100 bullets significantly deformed according to the ballistics expert who ran the tests & is quoted in the video.

Any suggestions of other experiments that were run in addition to the above would be appreciated.

 

 

I discuss a number of tests (performed for the WC, TV, or research articles) on my website. Chapter 16, in which I discuss a number of shooting simulations performed on melons and skulls, and how the results of these simulations were spun to deceive the public, might be of particular interest. 

Since you mention Hathcock, the thought occurs that you are interested as well in attempts at replicating the timing of the shots. There is a great deal of material on this in Chapter 4g. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Bill Fite]

14 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I discuss a number of tests (performed for the WC, TV, or research articles) on my website. Chapter 16, in which I discuss a number of shooting simulations performed on melons and skulls, and how the results of these simulations were spun to deceive the public, might be of particular interest. 

Since you mention Hathcock, the thought occurs that you are interested as well in attempts at replicating the timing of the shots. There is a great deal of material on this in Chapter 4g. 

Thank you very much, sir.  

It's this type of data that I am interested in.

 

Quote

Howard Donahue, a ballistics expert, had his own doubts that Olivier's tests accurately replicated Kennedy's wounds. In August 1977, Donahue was interviewed on radio station WBAL. He told his interviewer that in the late sixties “I went and visited the laboratories at Edgewood Arsenal and talked to Dr. Olivier himself. Now he had fired ten shots into ten inert skulls from Oswald’s rifle. Now, an inert skull is a human skull which has been filled with gelatin. None of these skulls showed the giant, enormous, macerating effect that Kennedy’s head showed.And then I began to look at the two holes in his head. And I realized it couldn’t have come from Oswald’s rifle. And then a strange pattern of events started to occur that everything that supported the Warren Commission was easily obtainable for evidence and that which contradicted it was not available.”

While the skull presented by Olivier in his Warren Commission testimony was purported to have had its right side blown off, we can presume he conceded to Donahue that this only became apparent upon the removal of the gelatin 'scalp,' and that none of the ten skulls he'd had fired upon had been as "macerated" as Kennedy's skull.

I've just started reading through and have 1 somewhat unrelated question about shooting melons (and other items) off of ladders section.

I read the book Head Shot: The Science Behind the JFK Assassination.  In this book Chambers makes the argument that (from memory) that the human head isn't a rounded object sitting on a flat plane but is suspended by the neck.  So, shooting into an object on top of a ladder opens the experiment up to the application of backspin if the object is struck by the bullet below the center of gravity.  The experiments should be done on melons suspended from below by being on a spring or from above by a rope, in which case they all would go forward in the  direction of the bullet indicating a shot from the front.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Joe Bauer]

Is the "100 shots/100 significantly deformed 6.5 Carcano bullets" experimental test story true?

If so, how can anyone ever justify or give any credibility to the "Magic Bullet" theory again?

Do head shots into game animal's that may have skull thicknesses similar to a man's and that are spring loaded by connection to necks like JFK's was show the massive skull damage that JFK incurred on 11,22,1963? I've never hunted so I wouldn't know.

I asked the following question on another thread two days ago:

Was it scientifically possible that the first shot into JFK's back that supposedly came out the front of his throat could have had it's velocity so slowed in it's run through muscles, tendons and flesh that it just fell down onto the floor of the limo right after exiting JFK?

Hence the almost pristine bullet that SS agent Sam Kenney was reported to have found there?

Edited July 16, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Pat Speer]

5 hours ago, Bill Fite said:

Thank you very much, sir.  

It's this type of data that I am interested in.

 

I've just started reading through and have 1 somewhat unrelated question about shooting melons (and other items) off of ladders section.

I read the book Head Shot: The Science Behind the JFK Assassination.  In this book Chambers makes the argument that (from memory) that the human head isn't a rounded object sitting on a flat plane but is suspended by the neck.  So, shooting into an object on top of a ladder opens the experiment up to the application of backspin if the object is struck by the bullet below the center of gravity.  The experiments should be done on melons suspended from below by being on a spring or from above by a rope, in which case they all would go forward in the  direction of the bullet indicating a shot from the front.

Any thoughts on that?

 

As discussed in the chapter, the shooting of skulls off of ladders was a scam. The impact of the shots forced the skulls to rock the ladders forward. The skulls then recoiled off the ladders. If the skulls were dangling in the air, as per Chambers' suggestion, they would have moved forward. This isn't even remotely secret. Larry Sturdivan testified before the HSCA on the tests performed in 1964, in which the skulls were shot off of table tops. They all moved forward. 

[Pat Speer]

11 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Is the "100 shots/100 significantly deformed 6.5 Carcano bullets" story true?

If so, how can anyone ever justify or give any credibility to the "Magic Bullet" theory again?

Do head shots into game animal's that may have skull thicknesses similar to a man's and that are spring loaded by connection to necks like JFK's was show the massive skull damage that JFK incurred on 11,22,1963? I've never hunted so I wouldn't know.

I asked the following question on another thread two days ago:

Was it scientifically possible that the first shot into JFK's back that supposedly came out the front of his throat could have had it's velocity so slowed in it's run through muscles, tendons and flesh that it just fell down onto the floor of the limo right after exiting JFK?

Hence the almost pristine bullet that SS agent Sam Kenney was reported to have found there?

That the bullets shot into cadaver wrists were ALL more damaged than CE 399 has long been considered a major problem for the SBT. It is what drew Cyril Wecht to take an interest in the case. Those propping up the SBT claim, however, that CE 399 was traveling at a slower velocity than the test bullets. I go through this in great detail on my website.

It turns out, in the end, that the simulations of the SBT performed by the WC strongly suggest that the bullet would have to have been traveling at a greatly-reduced velocity, i.e. a subsonic bullet of small caliber...the kind recommended in the CIA's Manual on Assassination. 

Larry Sturdivan, in his book The JFK Myths, tried to disguise this fact, by presenting a series of numbers that made no sense. 

From patspeer.com, Chapter 11:

For those lost in the details, here is a quick chart summarizing the confusing and contradictory claims of Olivier and Sturdivan:

Velocity of a WCC/MC bullet:                      OLIVIER 1964   STURDIVAN 1978  STURDIVAN 2005

    as it leaves the muzzle                                 2,160 f/s           2,000 f/s           2,130-2,190 f/s 

    upon impact with Kennedy’s neck               1,904 f/s     1,700-1,800 f/s       1,985-2,045 f/s

    upon impact with Connally’s back                1,772 f/s     1,600-1,700 f/s       1,780-1,880 f/s

    lost within Connally’s chest                          >400 f/s       400-(600 f/s)      (1,180-1,480 f/s*)

    upon impact with Connally’s wrist             none given      1,100-1,300 f/s        400-600 f/s

    lost within Connally’s wrist                             82 f/s          (400-600 f/s)       (245-485 f/s)

    upon impact with Connally’s thigh               “very low”    approx. 700 f/s        115-155 f/s

    at which M/C bullets deform on bone

    while traveling sideways                                none given     1,000 f/s                 1,400 f/s

(numbers in parentheses are implied, not stated)

 

P.S. Notice how, late in life, Sturdivan tried to clean up the nonsense pushed by Olivier and himself in their WC and HSCA testimonies, by substantially lowering the velocity of the bullet upon impact with Connally's wrist. He did not do this through additional tests. He just doubled or even tripled the amount of velocity lost in Connally's chest because he thought it looked better. It didn't. Olivier testified that his goat tests demonstrated that a bullet grazing off a rib as it did on Connally would lose less than 400 f/s velocity, and Sturdivan upped this to as much as 1,480 f/s. Why? The presumption is that he'd decided that Connally was bigger than a goat. But there's a problem with this. It's b.s. Forum member Gary Murr was able to obtain a copy of the autopsy report written on one of the goats, and the wound track within the goat was the same distance as the wound track within Connally. 

[Gary Murr]

Hello Bill:

If you haven't already done so, might I suggest you read the late John Hunt's essay on the issue of CE 399 and it's ability to generate the various wounding processes assigned to it and the SBT. A link to this essay is below.

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm  

Gary Murr 

[Bill Fite]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Is the "100 shots/100 significantly deformed 6.5 Carcano bullets" story true?

If so, how can anyone ever justify or give any credibility to the "Magic Bullet" theory again?

Do head shots into game animal's that may have skull thicknesses similar to a man's and that are spring loaded by connection to necks like JFK's was show the massive skull damage that JFK incurred on 11,22,1963? I've never hunted so I wouldn't know.

I asked the following question on another thread two days ago:

Was it scientifically possible that the first shot into JFK's back that supposedly came out the front of his throat could have had it's velocity so slowed in it's run through muscles, tendons and flesh that it just fell down onto the floor of the limo right after exiting JFK?

Hence the almost pristine bullet that SS agent Sam Kenney was reported to have found there?

Hi Joe - go to 40:55 in this video posted by Vince Palamara --the experimental results are discussed there by Dr Joseph Dolce (sp?) who ran the experiments.  Dr Wecht discusses the goat cadaver tests in the minute before that.

The first  half of this video is a surprising interview w the Head of Nursing at Parkland where she discusses and displays a 'souvenir' bullet she was given at Parkland on the 22nd.

 

 

[Bill Fite]

16 minutes ago, Gary Murr said:

Hello Bill:

If you haven't already done so, might I suggest you read the late John Hunt's essay on the issue of CE 399 and it's ability to generate the various wounding processes assigned to it and the SBT. A link to this essay is below.

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/Breakability/Breakability.htm  

Gary Murr 

Thanks Gary.

[Pat Speer]

Hey, Vince, if you're reading this. I started to watch the video Bill mentioned but grew irritated that there seemed to be no sourcing for the video. I know you're one of the good guys but I found this disappointing. (I mean, who is the interviewer? Mark Oakes?)  I've had footage from my videos used without permission by someone who wanted to take credit for discoveries I've made. This individual not only refused to re-word his video to acknowledge he was presenting one of my discoveries, he said that it was people like me who were the problem...that I was the reason the case hadn't been solved. 

I have also had people ask if they could cut and paste all the witness quotes on my website, and put it out as a book, under their name. One of them even grew angry when I told him that while my list of witness quotes was 3-4 times the size of any other data base of quotes, that it was nevertheless incomplete, as there were witness statements provided William Manchester (and now housed at Wesleyan University), and The Sixth Floor Museum (as part of its oral history program) that would be costly to uncover. He asked me if I planned on buying all these documents, because he really wanted to claim "his" book held "all" the witness statements. 

So I apologize for being sensitive about this. But I think any video posted on a YouTube channel comprising footage from other videos should give credit in the title of the video, or at the very least, list the videos used in its creation at the beginning of the video.  

[Vince Palamara]

On 7/16/2022 at 9:34 PM, Pat Speer said:

Hey, Vince, if you're reading this. I started to watch the video Bill mentioned but grew irritated that there seemed to be no sourcing for the video. I know you're one of the good guys but I found this disappointing. (I mean, who is the interviewer? Mark Oakes?)  I've had footage from my videos used without permission by someone who wanted to take credit for discoveries I've made. This individual not only refused to re-word his video to acknowledge he was presenting one of my discoveries, he said that it was people like me who were the problem...that I was the reason the case hadn't been solved. 

I have also had people ask if they could cut and paste all the witness quotes on my website, and put it out as a book, under their name. One of them even grew angry when I told him that while my list of witness quotes was 3-4 times the size of any other data base of quotes, that it was nevertheless incomplete, as there were witness statements provided William Manchester (and now housed at Wesleyan University), and The Sixth Floor Museum (as part of its oral history program) that would be costly to uncover. He asked me if I planned on buying all these documents, because he really wanted to claim "his" book held "all" the witness statements. 

So I apologize for being sensitive about this. But I think any video posted on a YouTube channel comprising footage from other videos should give credit in the title of the video, or at the very least, list the videos used in its creation at the beginning of the video.  

Hi, Pat! JUST seeing this now. I did indeed credit Mark Oakes for this (the original video, anyways). I suppose I could have made it more pronounced, but I DO have this in the video description AND pinned comment there:

***Feature Presentation: "The Death of the Magic Bullet" (JFK assassination)*** AN EXCERPT FROM MY SECOND BOOK ON THE MEDICAL EVIDENCE JFK: FROM PARKLAND TO BETHESDA: 21 H 193- 202: 12/11/63 report from Elizabeth L. Wright-Good---Director, Nursing Service to C.J. Price [Mrs. Wright-Good is the widow of O.P. Wright, Parkland Hospital security chief. Wallace Milam interviewed her on 6/23/93 and Mark Oakes did the same on video in Oct. 11, 1994---besides her belief, shared by her husband, that the shots had to have come from more than one direction, **she showed Oakes on camera an unfired .38 special, WCC revolver bullet which she said was THE bullet that her husband had attempted in vain to give to “an FBI agent”! She showed the bullet to Henry Wade, which is backed up by Oakes videotaped interview with Wade in May 1992 [although, as Oakes and Good acknowledge, Wade got her name wrong] and, to a lesser extent, Wright’s mention of Wade at 21 H 196.

----------------

I make zero money on any of the videos on my channel and sometimes I am so caught up in compiling these things that I forget overt attribition (although, to be fair, in the vast majority of my videos it is plainly obvious- example: a video of Tink Thompson speaking at a specific conference) edit-I just added this to the video description:

***interviews of Henry Wade and Elizabeth Wright by Mark Oakes*** -JOSIAH THOMPSON 2003 -DR. ROBERT SHAW 1977 -DR. ROBERT SHAW 11/22/63 COMPILATION ABC/CBS -DR. ROBERT SHAW, DR. CYRIL WECHT, DR. JOSEPH DOLCE 1985 -NATHAN POOL 1/10/77

Edited July 18, 2022 by Vince Palamara

[Vince Palamara]

On 7/15/2022 at 5:04 AM, Bill Fite said:

I just watched the 'Death of the Magic Bullet Theory' video Vince Palamara posted on YouTube.  Thanks for that Mr Palamara.

I'm interested in looking at experimental evidence in the murder of JFK.

This could be either evidence for / against a conspiracy or LHO's guilt / innocence.  But... it would have to include the number of experiments run and the results - not anecdotal evidence such as the Carlos Hathcock quote that the Marines had tried to duplicate the lone gunman TSBD scenario and failed every time.  The number of tests is unknown.

A good example from that video:

• The test firings of the MC rifle into goat & human cadavers to experimentally simulate the Connally wounds to the rib and arm  -  100 trials with 100 bullets significantly deformed according to the ballistics expert who ran the tests & is quoted in the video.

Any suggestions of other experiments that were run in addition to the above would be appreciated.

 

 

thanks!

[Pat Speer]

7 minutes ago, Vince Palamara said:

Hi, Pat! JUST seeing this now. I did indeed credit Mark Oakes for this (the original video, anyways). I suppose I could have made it more pronounced, but I DO have this in the video description AND pinned comment there:

***Feature Presentation: "The Death of the Magic Bullet" (JFK assassination)*** AN EXCERPT FROM MY SECOND BOOK ON THE MEDICAL EVIDENCE JFK: FROM PARKLAND TO BETHESDA: 21 H 193- 202: 12/11/63 report from Elizabeth L. Wright-Good---Director, Nursing Service to C.J. Price [Mrs. Wright-Good is the widow of O.P. Wright, Parkland Hospital security chief. Wallace Milam interviewed her on 6/23/93 and Mark Oakes did the same on video in Oct. 11, 1994---besides her belief, shared by her husband, that the shots had to have come from more than one direction, **she showed Oakes on camera an unfired .38 special, WCC revolver bullet which she said was THE bullet that her husband had attempted in vain to give to “an FBI agent”! She showed the bullet to Henry Wade, which is backed up by Oakes videotaped interview with Wade in May 1992 [although, as Oakes and Good acknowledge, Wade got her name wrong] and, to a lesser extent, Wright’s mention of Wade at 21 H 196.

----------------

I make zero money on any of the videos on my channel and sometimes I am so caught up in compiling these things that I forget overt attribition (although, to be fair, in the vast majority of my videos it is plainly obvious- example: a video of Tink Thompson speaking at a specific conference) edit-I just added this to the video description:

***interviews of Henry Wade and Elizabeth Wright by Mark Oaks*** -JOSIAH THOMPSON 2003 -DR. ROBERT SHAW 1977 -DR. ROBERT SHAW 11/22/63 COMPILATION ABC/CBS -DR. ROBERT SHAW, DR. CYRIL WECHT, DR. JOSEPH DOLCE 1985 -NATHAN POOL 1/10/77

Yes, you say Mark Oakes interviewed her on video, but I don't believe you say anywhere that the video you are showing is Mark Oakes' video. I think that should be in the title or at least before you mention your book. 

Like I said, I know you're one of the good guys. But I still feel the disgust I had from about 15 years ago when some creep started a video channel of JFK related interviews, which largely consisted of interviews taken from Rush to Judgment. And said nothing about Rush to Judgment or even Mark Lane in the titles, or anywhere on the Channel.

We both remember the music industry. I remember the horror when I realized that young people thought it was fine to share music via the internet, and that all music should be free. Well, some of these video channels are even worse, IMO. It's not only taking someone else's work and trying to make money off of it, but it's letting people assume you've created the content. Like, listen to this, it's this new song I wrote... it's called "Stairway to Heaven."

 

[Vince Palamara]

3 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Yes, you say Mark Oakes interviewed her on video, but I don't believe you say anywhere that the video you are showing is Mark Oakes' video. I think that should be in the title or at least before you mention your book. 

Like I said, I know you're one of the good guys. But I still feel the disgust I had from about 15 years ago when some creep started a video channel of JFK related interviews, which largely consisted of interviews taken from Rush to Judgment. And said nothing about Rush to Judgment or even Mark Lane in the titles, or anywhere on the Channel.

We both remember the music industry. I remember the horror when I realized that young people thought it was fine to share music via the internet, and that all music should be free. Well, some of these video channels are even worse, IMO. It's not only taking someone else's work and trying to make money off of it, but it's letting people assume you've created the content. Like, listen to this, it's this new song I wrote... it's called "Stairway to Heaven."

 

You make some good points. I guess because I make no money and wasn't trying to take anybody else's work, it didn't cross my mind until you pointed it out that it can give the impression that I am trying to say this is my video, per se. I will try to add Mark's name to the video itself via an edit.

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Bart Kamp isn't too pleased that some of his videos have been (to use a polite term) borrowed without attribution:

• https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2409p25-fair-play-for-vince-palamara#39874
• http://www.prayer-man.com/vince-palamara-stop-lifting-dpuk-videos-and-taking-credit-for-it/