Buell Wesley Frazier, curtain rods and the lack of blaming Frazier- very interesting

[Michael Griffith]

Why would Oswald have lied about not bringing curtain rods to work when he would have known that surely the curtain rods would eventually be found in the TSBD, if he had in fact brought them into the building? 

If Oswald did bring curtain rods to work, why would he have denied this, given the evidence that suggests that his room in the rooming house did need a new curtain rod? (No, I don't believe the landlady's story that Dallas police officers bent the curtain rod when they searched his room after he was arrested. Why would they have done that? It makes no sense.)

Either way, unless Frazier and his sister had terrible eyesight and were horrible judges of length, the bag that Oswald was brought to work was far too small to have carried a disassembled Carcano. 

 

[Joe Bauer]

4 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

Why would Oswald have lied about not bringing curtain rods to work when he would have known that surely the curtain rods would eventually be found in the TSBD, if he had in fact brought them into the building? 

If Oswald did bring curtain rods to work, why would he have denied this, given the evidence that suggests that his room in the rooming house did need a new curtain rod? (No, I don't believe the landlady's story that Dallas police officers bent the curtain rod when they searched his room after he was arrested. Why would they have done that? It makes no sense.)

Either way, unless Frazier and his sister had terrible eyesight and were horrible judges of length, the bag that Oswald was brought to work was far too small to have carried a disassembled Carcano. 

 

So Oswald said he didn't bring anything with him that morning except a paper bag lunch?

Would he have thrown this onto the back seat as he got in Frazier's car?

No curtain rods were ever found in the TXSBD building?

It's getting harder to deny both Frazier's basic accounts imo.

There was a brown paper wrapped object larger that a sack lunch put in the back seat of BF's car that morning.

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I discuss the bag at some length (pun not intended) in a section of Chapter 2 at patspeer.com entitled Not Exactly in the Bag.

From that chapter:

On 12-2-63, we find out that Dallas FBI agents Odum and McNeely, desperate to get around the problem created by Frazier's refusal to ID the bag, have visited the school book depository, gathered up some paper and some tape, and created a replica sack to show those who knew Oswald. Significantly, the report on their actions of the day before tells us the paper was described as "60 pound paper, 24 inches wide" and that the tape was "gummed, brown paper tape, three inches wide, made on 60 pound paper stock." (CD7, p292). It also tells us that after creating the sack, they took it, along with the original sack, which had been stained by the FBI during testing, over to show Ruth Paine, at whose home Oswald had stayed the night before the shooting. She "advised that she does not recall seeing Lee Oswald in possession of any sack resembling either of these sacks, nor does she recall seeing him in possession of paper or tape of the type used on either of these sacks." (CD7, p293).

Perhaps hoping he would change his mind, they then showed these sacks to Buell Frazier. In their 12-2 report, Odum and McNeeley re-tell Frazier's story. They write: "As he started to drive out of the yard, Frazier glanced back and noticed a long package, light brown in color, lying on the back of the rear seat and extending from approximately the right rear door to about the center of the seat...Frazier designated an approximate spot on the back seat where he felt the package extended to from the right rear door and measurement by Special Agents Bardwell D. Odum and Gibbon E. McNeeley determined that this spot was 27 inches from the inside of the right door, indicating that Frazier estimates that as the length of the package." They then recount Frazier's recollection of how Oswald carried the package into the building: "Oswald had this package under his right arm, one end of this package being under his armpit and the other end apparently held with his right fingers...Frazier stated that when he saw this package under the arm of Oswald, he reached the conclusion that the package was wrapped in a cheap, crinkly, thin paper sack, such as that provided by Five and Ten Cent Stores." They then describe showing Frazier the replica sack. Agent Odum held the sack under his arm, and they measured how much of the sack was visible to Frazier, when held under his arm. It was 9" by 1". According to Odum's report, Frazier then advised Odum "that he now realizes that his conclusion that the sack was thin, crinkly paper, of the type used in Five and Ten Cent stores, was based to a considerable extent upon the fact that the color of the sack was a very light brown as compared with the type of dark brown paper used for heavier grocery sacks. He noted that the color of the replica sack was the same color as the package which he had seen in possession of Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963." Odum then shows Frazier the original sack. He writes: "Frazier examined the original found by the sixth floor window of the TSBD Building on November 22,1963, and stated that if that sack was originally the color of the replica sack, it could have been the sack or package which he saw in the possession of Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963, but that he does not feel he is in a position to definitely state that this original is or is not the sack." This is incredibly disingenuous, and fails to note that Frazier was shown this sack, on the night of the shooting, before it had been discolored by the FBI's tests, and had refused to identify it as the sack or bag brought into work by Oswald. Odum then reports: "Frazier indicated on the replica sack the estimated width of the package in possession of Oswald on the morning of November 22, 1963, and this was found to be an approximate width of six inches." (CD7, 294-297).

They then showed the sack to Frazier's sister, Linnie Mae Randle. She also has her doubts about the sack. Odum reports: "Mrs. Randle states that at the time she saw Oswald walking across the street, he was carrying a long package wrapped in brown paper or a brown sack in his right hand. It appeared to contain something heavy. She stated that it was long but did not touch the ground as he walked across the street. She examined a replica of the sack...She stated that this was the same kind of paper that made up the sack or package that she saw Oswald carrying, and was the same heavy grade of paper, since she recalls noting that there was something heavy in the sack when she saw it, and it was the same color paper as the sack she had seen on the morning of November 22, 1963. She was shown the original paper sack...She stated that if the original sack was previously the same color as the replica sack, that the original sack could have been the one which she saw Oswald carrying on the morning of November 22, 1963...The action of Oswald walking across Westbrook Street was re-enacted by Special Agent McNeeley, carrying the replica sack...in accordance with Mrs. Randle's observations, Special Agent McNeeley grasped the top of the sack with his hand...When the proper length of the sack was reached according to Mrs. Randle's estimate, it was measured and found to be 27 inches long. She demonstrated the width of the sack as it appeared to her, noting that it did have something bulky in it originally. Her designation on the replica sack was found to be 8 1/2 inches for the width of the original package she had seen Oswald carrying." (CD7, p298-299).

Now here, once again, Odum acts as though the recollection of the witness is consistent with the sack carried by Oswald being the sack found in the sniper's nest. This just isn't true. Two witnesses saw the sack. The FBI performed two tests to determine the length of the sack seen by the witnesses. Frazier estimated the length of the package he saw on his back seat. They measured this out on the seat and it would have been about 27 inches long. They then re-enacted Oswald walking across the street to get Randle's best estimate of the length of the sack. This led her to conclude the sack she saw was...27 inches long. We've seen some evidence photos. The sack photographed by the FBI is about 38 inches long, approximately 40% longer than the sack described by both Frazier and Randle. It also appears to have been slightly tapered from one end to the other--from about 8 1/2 inches wide at the open end to about 9 1/4 inches wide at the closed end, for an average of 8 7/8 inches wide. Frazier, of course, said the bag in Oswald's possession was about 6 inches wide.

Time for math. 27 x 6 = 162 sq. inches. 38 x 8.875 = 337.25 sq. inches. This means the bag shown Frazier--assuming it was the bag sent on to the FBI--was more than twice as large as the bag he recalled seeing in Oswald's possession.

It was also made from a thicker paper. No wonder he'd refused to ID the bag!

I got it know, re-read Chapter 2, somehow I mixed up parts with things I got elsewhere  (that's me just wanting to go too fast...)

 

[Gil Jesus]

1 hour ago, Michael Griffith said:

Why would Oswald have lied about not bringing curtain rods to work when he would have known that surely the curtain rods would eventually be found in the TSBD, if he had in fact brought them into the building? 

If Oswald did bring curtain rods to work, why would he have denied this, given the evidence that suggests that his room in the rooming house did need a new curtain rod? (No, I don't believe the landlady's story that Dallas police officers bent the curtain rod when they searched his room after he was arrested. Why would they have done that? It makes no sense.)

Either way, unless Frazier and his sister had terrible eyesight and were horrible judges of length, the bag that Oswald was brought to work was far too small to have carried a disassembled Carcano. 

 

Keep in mind Oswald's denial of bringing curtain rods and telling Frazier about the rods is hearsay coming from the Dallas Police. 

But even if he did tell them that, it may have been to hide the fact that he had a fight with his wife and didn't want to tell them about it or the reason for it.

[David Von Pein]

From a July 2016 Internet discussion.....

ANTHONY MARSH SAID:

I can't prove anything about the package, but I can GUESS. .... The package held a pair of curtain rods, because he [Lee Oswald] wanted to put up room darkening curtains instead of the flimsy curtains he had in his rooming house. I had to do the same thing when I moved into a rooming house and my room was right under the street light.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Then what happened to those "curtain rods" after the assassination, Tony? Why weren't they found ANYWHERE?

You're not going to theorize that the cops deep-sixed the rods, are you Anthony? That would be pure speculation and wishful thinking on your part, wouldn't it?

I guess you could create a brand-new theory --- i.e., Oswald had the curtain rods with him when he left the Book Depository Building at approximately 12:33 PM on November 22nd, but somebody stole them from him before LHO could reach his roominghouse on Beckley Avenue. And then Oswald just decided to keep quiet about this theft after he was arrested, because he didn't want to get the poor thief in trouble.

How 'bout that one, Tony? Great new twist, eh?


ANTHONY MARSH SAID:

The conspirators took his rifle out of the garage while Oswald slept. One of them carried it up to the sixth floor and shot the President.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's fun to just invent unsupportable theories out of thin air, isn't it Tony?

But, Tony, why would you choose to believe the wholly unsupportable scenario you just put on the table above instead of simply believing what the evidence (coupled with Lee Harvey Oswald's own actions and LIES) clearly indicates is the truth --- which is: Lee Oswald himself took his own rifle to work with him on 11/22/63 and used that gun to shoot President John F. Kennedy.

Why would you go with an extraordinary theory about "conspirators" sneaking into Ruth Paine's garage and stealing Oswald's rifle when a perfectly reasonable ordinary explanation is available for the choosing?

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Much more about Oswald's "Curtain Rods" lie:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/curtain-rods.html

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[David Von Pein]

Curtain Rod Addendum....

From comments he made to his wife on 11/21/63, there is at least some indication that Lee Oswald was planning to move away from his Beckley room soon after 11/21/63. If this was in Oswald's mind on the evening of November 21st, then the act of obtaining curtain rods for a room he would soon be vacating makes no sense whatsoever.

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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Curtain Rods --- Part 2

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[Mark Knight]

34 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Curtain Rod Addendum....

From comments he made to his wife on 11/21/63, there is at least some indication that Lee Oswald was planning to move away from his Beckley room soon after 11/21/63. If this was in Oswald's mind on the evening of November 21st, then the act of obtaining curtain rods for a room he would soon be vacating makes no sense whatsoever.

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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Curtain Rods --- Part 2

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UNLESS the curtain rods in Oswald's room were damaged...and he didn't want to be charged for a replacement by his landlady when he left. 

When I was renting back when i was married with two small kids, whenever I was preparing to move, I'd take the time and effort to repair or replace anything that might've come out of my damage deposit had I left it as it was. [Sometimes I replaced items that were damaged when I moved in, just to get that deposit back.]

[Andrew Prutsok]

40 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Curtain Rod Addendum....

From comments he made to his wife on 11/21/63, there is at least some indication that Lee Oswald was planning to move away from his Beckley room soon after 11/21/63. If this was in Oswald's mind on the evening of November 21st, then the act of obtaining curtain rods for a room he would soon be vacating makes no sense whatsoever.

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http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Curtain Rods --- Part 2

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Yes. Tomorrow I'm going to murder the president, then I'm going to find a nicer place to live.

[David Von Pein]

13 minutes ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

Yes. Tomorrow I'm going to murder the president, then I'm going to find a nicer place to live.

Do you think Oswald had curtain rods in the package he took to work on 11/22/63, Andrew?

[Allen Lowe]

5 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Do you think Oswald had curtain rods in the package he took to work on 11/22/63, Andrew?

David you’re kind of missing the point. If Oswald was planning to murder the president, he would think about escaping the area not moving to a new apartment.

On the other hand, if you believe that’s true, thank you for the assistance as you’ve helped prove that he was not a participant in the presidents murder.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Allen Lowe

[David Von Pein]

19 minutes ago, Allen Lowe said:

David you’re kind of missing the point. If Oswald was planning to murder the president, he would think about escaping the area not moving to a new apartment.

On the other hand, if you believe that’s true, thank you for the assistance as you’ve helped prove that he was not a participant in the presidents murder.

I think it's you who have missed the point.

That point being (of course)....

The package that Lee Oswald carried into the TSBD on 11/22 did not contain any curtain rods, and Oswald lied to Buell Frazier when he (Oswald) said the package did contain curtain rods. And the fact that Oswald told such a blatant lie to Frazier (and then told another blatant lie to the police when he denied ever saying anything at all about "curtain rods" to Frazier) is extremely powerful circumstantial evidence of Oswald's guilt.

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Curtain Rod Addendum....

From comments he made to his wife on 11/21/63, there is at least some indication that Lee Oswald was planning to move away from his Beckley room soon after 11/21/63. If this was in Oswald's mind on the evening of November 21st, then the act of obtaining curtain rods for a room he would soon be vacating makes no sense whatsoever.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com / Curtain Rods --- Part 2

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Have you ever rented a room? There is usually a deposit involved. If Oswald damaged the curtain rods in his room, he would want to replace it himself to insure the return of his deposit. 

P.S. You keep insisting no curtain rods were ever found. Why don't you ask the BIG question. Where did the curtain rods tested by the DPD BEFORE any were recovered from Mrs. P's garage come from? And why would they be fingerprinted if it wasn't someplace connected to Oswald?

[Pat Speer]

39 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I think it's you who have missed the point.

That point being (of course)....

The package that Lee Oswald carried into the TSBD on 11/22 did not contain any curtain rods, and Oswald lied to Buell Frazier when he (Oswald) said the package did contain curtain rods. And the fact that Oswald told such a blatant lie to Frazier (and then told another blatant lie to the police when he denied ever saying anything at all about "curtain rods" to Frazier) is extremely powerful circumstantial evidence of Oswald's guilt.

That's what you've been told to believe, David. But there are reasons to doubt it is true. For one, it turned out the curtain rods in Oswald's room were damaged. For two, some curtain rods were fingerprinted by the DPD before any were removed from Mrs. Paine's garage. 

[Guest]

Curtain-rods : the only one that (and alledgedly) said they were in the package (LHO) is no more among us

So no mather wath Frazier said - about what LHO said was in it - has become of zero importance, he has tried years looking for a way to live with that !  His picture kneeling at LHO's grave says it all....

The whole case has ruined a lot of lives...

But o/c it still is important to find out how the agencies handled all of this, thàt is the way to perhaps solve this whole case.  They that are hiding, faking,... have a reason to do so.... like Pat says.. they would have a lot to explain in a court room

 

  

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Derek Thibeault]