Question About Harvey, Lee, and the "Two Marguerites"

[Benjamin Cole]

51 minutes ago, David Lifton said:

Re your statement:  "Later in life Blakey realized he had been used." 

No.  I don't believe  Blakey was "used."  I met him. He was not dumb.  I talked to him, at length.  Prof. Blakey was a stubborn man of limited ability who simply could not see beyond his "mob did it" hypothesis. In conversations that I had with both him(and attorney Andrew Purdy, the "Arlen  Specter" of the HSCA investigation), I laid out the particulars -- that this (Dallas) was a "body-centric" plot.  That the body --i.e., JFK's body, i.e., his wounds -- were altered to provide the legal basis for a false story of the crime.  Two shots from behind; LHO did it, etc.  Blakey simply didn't believe it --or couldn't.  I do not propose to satisfactory explain why Blakey behaved (or believed) as he did.  I can only report my own experience.   Dealing with Robert Blakey was like trying to explain the motion of the planets to someone who didn't, or couldn't, believe in gravity.  (DSL, 9/12/22, 2 AM PDT)

Thanks for your insights. 

Whatever compelled Blakey to be Blakey, the results we have. 

[W. Niederhut]

       Just to clarify, the only comment I have posted on this thread about Oswald's fluency in Russian, (per George De Mohrenschildt and other witnesses*) and his ability to read and discuss advanced Russian literature (Turgenev, Dostoevsky, et.al.) in Russian, is that I do not believe such accomplished Russian literacy and fluency can be plausibly explained by an autism spectrum disorder in a high school drop out who couldn't even spell words in English.  Period.

      Jeremy Bojczuk keeps referring to my comment as a "talking point."  It isn't.  It's simply a point.

     Apparently, Greg Parker has ridiculed my psychiatric opinion on this subject on some blog or website.

     I'll stand by my opinion.   The most plausible explanation for such remarkable literary fluency is that the young man had either studied Russian literature at a very advanced collegiate or post-graduate level, and/or was a native Russian speaker.

     The best thing I have read on the subject of Oswald's surprising Russian fluency is James Norwood's excellent essay at the Harvey and Lee website.  It references numerous witnesses.

*  Oswald's Russian Language Proficiency (harveyandlee.net)

     

Edited September 12, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Tom Gram]

10 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

       Just to clarify, the only comment I have posted on this thread about Oswald's fluency in Russian, (per George De Mohrenschildt and other witnesses*) and his ability to read and discuss advanced Russian literature (Turgenev, Dostoevsky, et.al.) in Russian, is that I do not believe such accomplished Russian literacy and fluency can be plausibly explained by an autism spectrum disorder in a high school drop out who couldn't even spell words in English.  Period.

      Jeremy Bojczuk keeps referring to my comment as a "talking point."  It isn't.  It's simply a point.

     Apparently, Greg Parker has ridiculed my psychiatric opinion on this subject on some blog or website.

     I'll stand by my opinion.   The most plausible explanation for such remarkable literary fluency is that the young man had either studied Russian literature at a very advanced collegiate or post-graduate level, and/or was a native Russian speaker.

     The best thing I have read on the subject of Oswald's surprising Russian fluency is James Norwood's excellent essay at the Harvey and Lee website.  It references numerous witnesses.

*  Oswald's Russian Language Proficiency (harveyandlee.net)

     

Parker backs up his theory on the language issue with research and personal correspondence from the top Asperger’s expert on the planet, Tony Attwood. According to Attwood, Oswald having enhanced language acquisition abilities as a result of Asperger’s was an “intriguing possibility”, and according to his research: 

Not only can a foreign language be learned quickly, but with Asperger’s Syndrome, it is often spoken without a hint of the person’s native tongue, for example, “when an Englishman learns French, a native of France can easily detect that the speaker’s first language is English.” Such detection is far less likely however, if the Englishman happens to have Asperger’s Syndrome
——-
Once the child with Asperger’s Syndrome has heard a particular word or phrase, the original enunciation will be continued such that the experienced listener may be able to identify whose accent is being echoed.

——-

In Asperger’s Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, Tony Attwood quotes a patient regarding odd changes in her speech patterns. According to the patient, she would “often fluctuate between accents and pitch” and the manner in which she described things. She also noted that her accent was sometimes “quite polished and refined.” That this is not a rare instance can be seen in various online forums dedicated to Asperger’s. In one example, a partner of a person with Asperger’s commented that “…he says things so properly that he has no accent at all, and that’s why he sounds a little weird. Most people where we live have pretty obvious American southern accents and it’s like he’s immune to picking it up. Then sometimes there’s this blunt, angry-sounding “accent” that makes him sound a little eastern European or something.

That sounds a heck of a lot like Oswald to me.  

Might Attwood’s opinion of an “intriguing possibility” be just as if not more valid than your own given his specific expertise in ASDs? 

(All content pasted from https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2622-another-attention-seeker-at-the-13-inch-head-forum-pt-two#40259. There is a lot more for anyone who’s interested) 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Tom Gram

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Parker backs up his theory on the language issue with research and personal correspondence from the top Asperger’s expert on the planet, Tony Attwood. According to Attwood, Oswald having enhanced language acquisition abilities as a result of Asperger’s was an “intriguing possibility”, and according to his research: 

Not only can a foreign language be learned quickly, but with Asperger’s Syndrome, it is often spoken without a hint of the person’s native tongue, for example, “when an Englishman learns French, a native of France can easily detect that the speaker’s first language is English.” Such detection is far less likely however, if the Englishman happens to have Asperger’s Syndrome
——-
Once the child with Asperger’s Syndrome has heard a particular word or phrase, the original enunciation will be continued such that the experienced listener may be able to identify whose accent is being echoed.

——-

In Asperger’s Syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals, Tony Attwood quotes a patient regarding odd changes in her speech patterns. According to the patient, she would “often fluctuate between accents and pitch” and the manner in which she described things. She also noted that her accent was sometimes “quite polished and refined.” That this is not a rare instance can be seen in various online forums dedicated to Asperger’s. In one example, a partner of a person with Asperger’s commented that “…he says things so properly that he has no accent at all, and that’s why he sounds a little weird. Most people where we live have pretty obvious American southern accents and it’s like he’s immune to picking it up. Then sometimes there’s this blunt, angry-sounding “accent” that makes him sound a little eastern European or something.

That sounds a heck of a lot like Oswald to me.  

Might Attwood’s opinion of an “intriguing possibility” be just as if not more valid than your own given his specific expertise in ASDs? 

(All content pasted from https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2622-another-attention-seeker-at-the-13-inch-head-forum-pt-two#40259. There is a lot more for anyone who’s interested) 

Tom,

     Did you read the Norwood article I posted today?

     "Oswald" was, apparently familiar with the works of Turgenev, Dostoevsky, Gorky, and other Russian literati-- having read and discussed their work in Russian!  That's not the same thing as someone being able to possibly mimic a foreign accent.  (BTW, "Oswald" allegedly spoken remarkably good Russian with a slight Polish accent.)  

     It's about knowledge of both the language and its high literature-- by a young man who couldn't even spell in English!   (I have read some of Lee Oswald's English prose.  He spelled phonetically.)

    A professor of Slavic languages from Yale opined that "Oswald" was most likely a native Russian speaker for whom English was a second language.  Doesn't sound like Lee Oswald of Fort Worth to me-- with or without Asperger's.

    But, since you are, apparently, a big fan of Greg Parker, let me ask you a question.

    How do you and Greg Parker explain Armstrong's Kudlaty evidence-- i.e., the fact that the FBI confiscated Oswald's school records from Kudlaty after JFK's assassination?

     

Edited September 13, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

I'm definitely not W, Parker or Atwood when it comes to psychoanalysis.  But I thought a symptom of Asperger's was hyperactivity.  I don't see this in Oswald's brief encounters with the press after his arrest.  No sir, I didn't shoot anybody. Somewhat measured.  I am asking for someone to come forward and help me. Nervous somewhat, understandably given the circumstances but not skipping from tangent to tangent. 

Maybe a little in his New Orleans debate when confronted with his Russian trip?  IDK.  

[James DiEugenio]

As William explains, his point is not about the language facility.

Its about the knowledge and nuance of Turgenev and Dostoevsky. And how Oswald was able to discuss this great literature in Russian.

That is all I have to say about it.  

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by James DiEugenio

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

W. Niederhut writes:

Quote

The most plausible explanation for such remarkable literary fluency is that the young man had either studied Russian literature at a very advanced collegiate or post-graduate level, and/or was a native Russian speaker.

We can rule out the second option, the notion that Oswald was a native speaker of Russian, for reasons I've already given:

• Oswald was teaching himself the language while in the Marines. He did so openly, with the help of Russian-language newspapers and a Russian-English dictionary, and with the apparent approval of his superiors. We know this happened because several of his Marine buddies made statements to that effect.
• His rating in a Russian-language test was 'P', which stood for 'poor', according to the officer who testified to the Warren Commission (although you could argue that the 'P' stood for 'pass' or 'proficient').

For details and references, please read the thread I linked to earlier:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26571-oswalds-language-abilities-and-evidence-related-to-his-soviet-soujourn-1959-63/page/7/

Although you don't need to be a native speaker of Russian to talk intelligently in Russian about Russian literature, it is certainly plausible that a graduate or post-graduate student of Russian could do so. But it is also plausible that an intelligent non-graduate could do so, given (a) an innate facility for languages, (b) some specialist tuition, and (c) a period of immersion among native speakers of the language. If W. Niederhut reads Greg Parker and Jim Purtnell's article, he will find a plausible argument that those three criteria matched Oswald's experience:

http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language

What we are left with is a choice between two options:

• Oswald had an innate aptitude for languages and probably received tuition in Russian while in the Marines.
• Or two unrelated boys, one of them a native speaker of Russian, were selected at a young age in the hope that when they grew up a decade or more later they would turn out to look near-enough identical; and that, lo and behold, it came to pass that they did end up looking near-enough identical; and that the native Russian-speaking boy was allowed to forget so much of his native language, the very reason for which he was recruited in the first place, that he had to learn the language all over again, making himself look like someone who was not a native speaker; and that each of the two boys had a doppelganger mother, also unrelated to each other; and that one of the boys and one of the mothers vanished without trace a couple of days after the assassination, never to be heard from again; and a number of other far-fetched claims.

Now, which of those options is the more plausible?

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

I'm excited by the idea of a debate between Greg Parker and a champion of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory!

Greg has set out his terms, which sound fair to me (he's even willing to take on more than one champion):

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2626-another-final-h-l-debate

But is there anyone who is sufficiently confident in his beliefs to take on Greg?

[W. Niederhut]

6 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

I'm excited by the idea of a debate between Greg Parker and a champion of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory!

Greg has set out his terms, which sound fair to me (he's even willing to take on more than one champion):

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t2626-another-final-h-l-debate

But is there anyone who is sufficiently confident in his beliefs to take on Greg?

Newsflash.  Greg Parker already got taken to the cleaners by Jim Hargrove and David Josephs on the original 11 year (2004-15) Education Forum Harvey and Lee thread that I referenced above.

People interested in the subject should read that lengthy, detailed thread.

And I'm still waiting for you Anti-H&L rhetoricians to tell us how you "debunked" Armstrong's data about Frank Kudlaty and the FBI's confiscation of Oswald's Stripling Junior High School records after JFK's assassination.

Every time the subject comes up, you deflect to a different topic.

As for Parker's Asperger's theory about Oswald's ability to read Dostoevsky and Turgenev in Russian, it's bunk.

Adults with Asperger's have difficulty perceiving and responding to social cues, and they tend to fixate on and repetitively talk about the subject of their obsession.  They generally lack wide-ranging, open-ended intellectual curiosity-- traits which are essential for the study and comprehension of advanced literature.

So, for example, an adult with Asperger's would be more likely to ruminate and talk obsessively about Raskalnikov's murder of the pawn broker in Crime and Punishment, rather than reading and discussing a wide array of great Russian literature in Russian.

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Jonathan Cohen]

13 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

And I'm still waiting for you Anti-H&L rhetoricians to tell us how you "debunked" Armstrong's data about Frank Kudlaty and the FBI's confiscation of Oswald's Stripling Junior High School records after JFK's assassination.

Every time the subject comes up, you deflect to a different topic.

This subject has been discussed on this forum and others many times, with numerous people pointing out flaws in the Kudlaty story. But after 11 pages of this thread, it's clear you have no real interest in taking any of these alternative explanations seriously.

[Tom Gram]

On 9/6/2022 at 9:12 PM, Tom Gram said:

As for Oswald learning Russian, I know high school and college kids who could barely ask to use the bathroom come back fluent in French and Spanish after a single semester abroad. I know Russian is a lot more difficult, but if Oswald had an innate talent, a basic understanding of the language, and dedication, I hardly think it’s impossible for him to become fluent to the point of being able to read and comprehend advanced literature after a period of full immersion.

I have read a couple Dostoevsky novels in English - just because Oswald could read and discuss it doesn’t mean his analysis was any good. Think how many average ass undergrad Russian students have to read Notes from the Underground and give their take on it. 

This was my previous comment on the advanced literature issue, which I don’t really see as much of an issue. Oswald liked to read, and the comments on the books came from White Russians who knew Oswald after his extended “immersion program” in the Soviet Union. 

And yes I am a fan of Greg Parker. I don’t agree with him on everything but he’s a very creative researcher who isn’t afraid to challenge long-held beliefs, which is the kind of thing that drives real progress in an old obsessively studied case like the JFKA. 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

And I'm still waiting for you Anti-H&L rhetoricians to tell us how you "debunked" Armstrong's data about Frank Kudlaty and the FBI's confiscation of Oswald's Stripling Junior High School records after JFK's assassination.

 

As I said earlier, any single piece of evidence will always have alternate explanations, some being quite ridiculous. (Speaking of ridiculous, you should have seen the explanation given by Greg Parker, on how it came to be that a dental record shows that Oswald had a broken prosthetic tooth (or teeth). This evidence, corroborated by other evidence, is inconvenient because the Oswald killed by Ruby had a full set of natural teeth, as revealed by his exhumation.)

As for Kudlaty, the alternative explanation I was once given was that he was Jack White's friend and that White had talked Kudlaty into lying for his other friend, John Armstrong.

 

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Every time the subject comes up, you deflect to a different topic.

 

Or they do what Jonathan just did... claim that it's flawed or debunked and then link to something where no such thing was done. They have no shame.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Or they do what Jonathan just did... claim that it's flawed or debunked and then link to something where no such thing was done. They have no shame.

Anyone who can read will see that throughout those threads, perfectly reasonable, alternative explanations were given. And really ... H&L detractors have no shame? We're not the ones who believe in imaginary doppelgangers, botched exhumations and that the 9/11 attacks and the moon landings were faked.

[Michael Kalin]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

As for Parker's Asperger's theory about Oswald's ability to read Dostoevsky and Turgenev in Russian, it's bunk.

Much obliged, should put the issue to bed, but it won't.

FWIW Parker's site, ROKC, in its earlier iteration was one of the better JFK forums, hosting lively & intensely argued discussions. Then the brain police chief took over, crushed dissenting opinions, remade the interface, but forgot to rename the site. It should now be called Maggie's Farm.

[Sandy Larsen]

If all we had to discuss was Oswald's Russian language abilities, I certainly wouldn't conclude from that anything like the H&L theory. I'd think he was some kind of minor savant or something like that.

But the totality of the evidence certainly indicates that there was some sort of doppelganger project going on. The advance Russian language thing fits in very well with evidence indicating that Oswald might have been WW2 era orphan from an Eastern European country.

Add to those things the evidence that Oswald was a fake defector, worked for the CIA, and had doubles later in life, and the H&L theory makes sense. At least the part up through the Marines stint.