Question About Harvey, Lee, and the "Two Marguerites"

[Jonathan Cohen]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Your evidence had nothing to do with the topic being discussed.

It sure does. I cited Pic's testimony to support the idea that just because he said he didn't recognize his brother in one photo, it doesn't mean he thought his brother had been replaced by a doppelganger. You are the one claiming there were two "Oswalds," not John Pic.

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

The boy was (supposedly) Lee, and yet Pic didn't recognize him in the picture? That supports the notion that there were two LHOs. The one in the Bronx Zoo photo was the one that wasn't Pic's half-brother.

It only "supports the notion" to you. No reasonable person would make this leap of logic, but that's what this absolutely inane theory requires of its adherents.

[Jonathan Cohen]

6 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

     What is your opinion about "Harvey" Oswald's alleged ability to read and discuss Turgenev and Dostoevsky in Russian?

     It, certainly, struck me as something quite unusual for a formerly dyslexic Texas teenager who dropped out of high school at a young age to join the Marines.  I can't picture Lee Oswald reading and discussing the philosophical musings of Ivan Karamazov in Russian!

      Are you familiar with Armstrong's discussion of that subject?

My opinion is that there's no reason to believe Oswald's Russian-language abilities are suspicious or proof of some secret, decades-long doppelganger program. Many people with dyslexia have enhanced auditory learning abilities, as Oswald appeared to possess. 

There's a long thread on this subject here, although it's cluttered by the usual nonsense from Jim Hargrove and John Butler about a doppelganger who was a native Russian speaker. Jeremy Bojzcuk points out numerous inconsistencies in the "Harvey and Lee" version of events, which in reality shows that Oswald's Russian was quite limited when he first arrived in Russia. He became much more proficient over his time there by speaking it everyday.

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

My opinion is that there's no reason to believe Oswald's Russian-language abilities are suspicious or proof of some secret, decades-long doppelganger program. Many people with dyslexia have enhanced auditory learning abilities, as Oswald appeared to possess. 

There's a long thread on this subject here, although it's cluttered by the usual nonsense from Jim Hargrove and John Butler about a doppelganger who was a native Russian speaker. Jeremy Bojzcuk points out numerous inconsistencies in the "Harvey and Lee" version of events, which in reality shows that Oswald's Russian was quite limited when he first arrived in Russia. He became much more proficient over his time there by speaking it everyday.

Greg Parker and Jim Purtell make a very compelling case that Oswald had enhanced language abilities as a result of Aspergers - which I think makes perfect sense. 

http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language

[Jonathan Cohen]

36 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Greg Parker and Jim Purtell make a very compelling case that Oswald had enhanced language abilities as a result of Aspergers - which I think makes perfect sense. 

http://www.jfkconversations.com/lee-oswald-russian-language

Tom, great point -- and certainly much more plausible than what "Harvey and Lee" bafflingly postulates.

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

 It, certainly, struck me as something quite unusual for a formerly dyslexic Texas teenager who dropped out of high school at a young age to join the Marines.  I can't picture Lee Oswald reading and discussing the philosophical musings of Ivan Karamazov in Russian!

 

W,

A U.C. Berkeley professor by the name of James Norwood wrote a scholarly article on Oswald's Russian speaking abilities. A copy of it is located on the Harvey & Lee website, here.

Note that Norwood is an H&L believer. He doesn't assume that Oswald had Asperger's syndrome.

 

[W. Niederhut]

C'mon, Jonathan.   Reading and discussing Turgenev and Dostoevsky in Russian?

How many Turgenev and Dostoevsky novels have you read?  

I can't picture a dyslexic high school drop out from Texas reading and discussing Turgenev and Dostoevsky in Russian-- regardless of a possible autism spectrum disorder.

That is, frankly, far less probable than Armstrong's theory about the Harvey and Lee doppelgangers.

If you're looking for "baffling" theories about Oswald to "debunk," take a closer look at Greg Parker and Jim Purtell's "explanatory" theory about Oswald's unusual fluency in Russian.  🤥

 

[W. Niederhut]

10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

W,

A U.C. Berkeley professor by the name of James Norwood wrote a scholarly article on Oswald's Russian speaking abilities. A copy of it is located on the Harvey & Lee website, here.

Note that Norwood is an H&L believer. He doesn't assume that Oswald had Asperger's syndrome.

 

Thanks, Sandy.  I'll check it out.

[Cory Santos]

For the record, when Oswald was in the marines he was reading Orwell’s classic Animal Farm.  Bunk mates joked with him because he was clueless that the book was anti-communist in its theme.  So he did not understand a book taught to 9th graders.   Keep that in mind.   

Edited September 6, 2022 by Cory Santos

[Tom Gram]

50 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said:

C'mon, Jonathan.   Reading and discussing Turgenev and Dostoevsky in Russian?

How many Turgenev and Dostoevsky novels have you read?  

I can't picture a dyslexic high school drop out from Texas reading and discussing Turgenev and Dostoevsky in Russian-- regardless of a possible autism spectrum disorder.

That is, frankly, far less probable than Armstrong's theory about the Harvey and Lee doppelgangers.

If you're looking for "baffling" theories about Oswald to "debunk," take a closer look at Greg Parker and Jim Purtell's "explanatory" theory about Oswald's unusual fluency in Russian.  🤥

 

What problems do you have with Parker and Purtell’s essay? It doesn’t seem particularly “debunkable” to me, and is a very plausible theory for how Oswald learned to speak Russian, IMO. 

The thesis is basically that Oswald had a innate ability to learn languages consistent with some of his other personality traits, and the authors provide circumstantial evidence for Oswald receiving training in Russian prior to being tested by the Marines. 

If you wanted to send a Marine to the Soviet Union as a false defector who could understand Russian, it seems to me that the simplest way to do that would be to scout for talent, then train them for the mission. 

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, Cory Santos said:

For the record, when Oswald was in the marines he was reading Orwell’s classic Animal Farm.  Bunk mates joked with him because he was clueless that the book was anti-communist in its theme.  So he did not understand a book taught to 9th graders.   Keep that in mind.   

 

That must have been LEE reading the book. HARVEY was highly intelligent and certainly would have known the book was about the rise of communism.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

W. Niederhut writes:

Quote

I can't picture Lee Oswald reading and discussing the philosophical musings of Ivan Karamazov in Russian! Are you familiar with Armstrong's discussion of that subject?

As I pointed out earlier, and as Jonathan and Tom have confirmed in this instance, there are plausible alternative explanations for every important aspect of the 'Harvey and Lee' speculation.

Again, W. Niederhut really should make the effort to look for these explanations before repeating long-debunked talking points. "I can't picture ..." - well, clearly that's true, but it's a consequence of only considering one side of an argument.

On the subject of Oswald's Russian, check out the link Jonathan gave:

https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26571-oswalds-language-abilities-and-evidence-related-to-his-soviet-soujourn-1959-63/page/7/

Read the final six pages of that thread, and watch this aspect of the self-contradictory 'Harvey and Lee' theory fall apart.

You'll discover ample evidence that Oswald taught himself Russian while in the Marines, and that he did poorly in a basic test in the language. Oswald's Russian was poor at first, it improved, but it never reached the level of a native speaker.

The one and only Lee Harvey Oswald was not a native speaker of Russian, contrary to a central claim of the 'Harvey and Lee' theory.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Jeremy Bojczuk
Corrected a typo

[Benjamin Cole]

On 9/4/2022 at 9:14 AM, W. Niederhut said:

Gerry,

     Here's a photo of Marguerite Claverie Oswald with her husband, Edwin Ekdahl, in 1945.

     Does she look anything like the short, heavy-set "Marguerite Oswald" who attended Oswald's funeral?

     (Incidentally, the minister who conducted Oswald's funeral, Louis Saunders, was my father-in-law's best friend.  He presided at my wedding.)

 

Below: Edwin Ekdahl and Marguerite Claverie Oswald in 1945

 

Marina and the other Marguerite Oswald (1963)

 

I don't get it.

Yes it looks like the same woman, with some years and miles and weight on her. The nose and chin match up. 

Hard to see the eyes, under the glasses. Forehead hairline looks the same. 

Not a lead-pipe cinch, but I would bet on it. 

[W. Niederhut]

11 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

What problems do you have with Parker and Purtell’s essay? It doesn’t seem particularly “debunkable” to me, and is a very plausible theory for how Oswald learned to speak Russian, IMO. 

The thesis is basically that Oswald had a innate ability to learn languages consistent with some of his other personality traits, and the authors provide circumstantial evidence for Oswald receiving training in Russian prior to being tested by the Marines. 

If you wanted to send a Marine to the Soviet Union as a false defector who could understand Russian, it seems to me that the simplest way to do that would be to scout for talent, then train them for the mission. 

Tom,

     I'm a (retired) Board Certified psychiatrist who has evaluated and treated a lot of patients with autism spectrum disorders over the decades.  And Russian literature has been an interest of mine for many years.

     I don't doubt that Lee Oswald, the dyslexic Texas high school drop out, could have learned some rudimentary Russian in the Marine Corps, but the notion that he could have developed the proficiency to read and discuss Turgenev and Dostoevsky in Russian is simply not plausible.

     Ergo, I believe the CIA cultivated a Russian-speaking Oswald double for their false defector op.

     Have you studied John Armstrong's research?

     Meanwhile, I notice that Jeremy Bojczuk continues to repeat his mantra about Armstrong's Oswald data being "debunked."   Are we supposed to be convinced by his repetition of the claim?

Edited September 6, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Tom,

     I'm a (retired) Board Certified psychiatrist who has evaluated and treated a lot of patients with autism spectrum disorders over the decades.  And Russian literature has been an interest of mine for many years.

     I don't doubt that Lee Oswald, the dyslexic Texas high school drop out, could have learned some rudimentary Russian in the Marine Corps, but the notion that he could have developed the proficiency to read and discuss Turgenev and Dostoevsky in Russian is simply not plausible.

     Ergo, I believe the CIA cultivated a Russian-speaking Oswald double for their false defector op.

     Have you studied John Armstrong's research?

     Meanwhile, I notice that Jeremy Bojczuk continues to repeat his mantra about Armstrong's Oswald data being "debunked."   Are we supposed to be convinced by his repetition of the claim?

Addendum:  Tom, regarding Oswald's 1959 defection to the U.S.S.R., John Newman documented a number of curiosities about the government records in the case in his 1995 opus, Oswald and the CIA, including the fact that the CIA waited a year before opening a 201 file on Oswald.

If I recall correctly, J. Edgar Hoover also expressed awareness/concern about an Oswald double.

Then there are the witness accounts of Lee Oswald involved in anti-Castro ops in Florida while "Oswald" was living in Minsk.

[Tony Rose]

On 9/4/2022 at 3:55 PM, W. Niederhut said:

     A related example was the way Nobel Laureate Luis Armstrong promulgated his bogus cellophane-wrapped melon propulsion theory about JFK's head after the public finally got to see the Zapruder film.

     

Luis Alvarez.