Oswald, Depository to Rooming House

[Bill Brown]

The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps (with the help of Cecil McWatters and William Whaley) in an attempt the determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached the rooming house.

Based on McWatters' statement of where it was that Oswald boarded the bus (we know Oswald boarded that bus because he had McWatters' specific bus transfer and McWatters said he issued that transfer to only one woman and only one man), Oswald walked about seven blocks east (into the downtown area) after he left the Depository within three minutes of the shooting.

"So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about two blocks (back) asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.  It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street." -- Cecil McWatters

They concluded, based on what McWatters told them (along with the Secret Service agents and FBI agents walking the route in an average time of six and a half minutes), that Oswald boarded the bus around 12:40 near the intersection of Field St. and Elm St. and then, after being on the bus for no more than four minutes, Oswald got off the bus near Lamar St. and Elm St. (asking for the transfer as he got off the bus).

So now we have Oswald leaving the bus around 12:44.

Oswald then walked three to four short blocks to the Greyhound station where he boarded Whaley's cab.  This has Oswald entering the cab around 12:48.

They then, with Whaley, reconstructed the cab ride from the Greyhound to the intersection of Beckley and Neely (Oswald got out of the cab on Beckley just north of the intersection with Neely).  They concluded (using a stopwatch) that the cab ride took five minutes and thirty seconds.

So now we have Oswald exiting Whaley's cab on Beckley at 12:53-12:54.

Still using the stopwatch, they concluded that it was a five minute and forty-five second walk from the point Oswald exited the cab back to the rooming house.

I think Oswald got to the rooming house between 12:58 and 1:00 and was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket before hurrying out the door, zipping up the jacket as he went out the door.

[Gil Jesus]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:43 AM, Bill Brown said:

The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps (with the help of Cecil McWatters and William Whaley) in an attempt the determine the absolute earliest that Oswald could have reached the rooming house.

Based on McWatters' statement of where it was that Oswald boarded the bus (we know Oswald boarded that bus because he had McWatters' specific bus transfer and McWatters said he issued that transfer to only one woman and only one man), Oswald walked about seven blocks east (into the downtown area) after he left the Depository within three minutes of the shooting.

"So I gave her a transfer and opened the door and she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about two blocks (back) asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did.  It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was near Poydras and Lamar Street." -- Cecil McWatters

They concluded, based on what McWatters told them (along with the Secret Service agents and FBI agents walking the route in an average time of six and a half minutes), that Oswald boarded the bus around 12:40 near the intersection of Field St. and Elm St. and then, after being on the bus for no more than four minutes, Oswald got off the bus near Lamar St. and Elm St. (asking for the transfer as he got off the bus).

So now we have Oswald leaving the bus around 12:44.

Oswald then walked three to four short blocks to the Greyhound station where he boarded Whaley's cab.  This has Oswald entering the cab around 12:48.

They then, with Whaley, reconstructed the cab ride from the Greyhound to the intersection of Beckley and Neely (Oswald got out of the cab on Beckley just north of the intersection with Neely).  They concluded (using a stopwatch) that the cab ride took five minutes and thirty seconds.

So now we have Oswald exiting Whaley's cab on Beckley at 12:53-12:54.

Still using the stopwatch, they concluded that it was a five minute and forty-five second walk from the point Oswald exited the cab back to the rooming house.

I think Oswald got to the rooming house between 12:58 and 1:00 and was back in his room just long enough to grab a jacket before hurrying out the door, zipping up the jacket as he went out the door.

I hate to burst your bubble, but McWatters never positively identified Oswald either as the man who got on his bus or the man he gave the transfer to.

Based on that fact, the rest of your summary is flawed.

[Bill Brown]

Oswald had McWatters' transfer on his person and we know this because McWatters testified that he gave a transfer to only one man and placed his very distinct mark on that transfer before issuing the transfer, the same distinct mark on the transfer taken from Oswald.

 

[Bill Brown]

Speaking of flawed summaries...

 

Gil... Have you retracted your claim that William Scoggins was lying in the street beside his cab and therefore never saw the fleeing gunman's face?  I mean, actually lying down in the street?  

 

[Gil Jesus]

2 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

Oswald had McWatters' transfer on his person and we know this because McWatters testified that he gave a transfer to only one man and placed his very distinct mark on that transfer before issuing the transfer, the same distinct mark on the transfer taken from Oswald.

 

McWatters testified that Oswald WASN'T the man he gave the transfer to.

So what makes you say police found it on Oswald ? Because THEY said so ?

Oswald was completely searched TWICE before they allegedly found that transfer.

 

The transfer was supposedly found on Oswald as he was searched waiting for the first lineup to begin at 4:05 pm.

So the police arrested Oswald and didn’t search him for almost an hour and a half after his arrest ?

It was allegedly found by Detective Richard Sims, who took it back up to the office, initialed it and put it in an envelope and left it in a desk of a superior officer of whom he could not remember. ( 7 H 173 )

It appears more than likely that this item was planted by police to defend the idea that Oswald fled on his own and not with an accomplice.

Why do I call this transfer phony ? Several reasons.

Firstly, Officer M.G. Hall assisted Sims and Boyd with the escort of Oswald to the first and second lineups. His report makes no mention of of a search or of finding any bus transfer on Oswald.

Secondly, an FBI teletype dated 2-3-64 notes that Detective Paul Bentley reported that he “completely searched Oswald and nothing was left in his pockets.”

No mention of any bus transfer.

Capt. Fritz verified that “Oswald was completely searched following his arrest and was allowed to keep nothing.”

Verification that Bentley emptied Oswald’s pockets comes during a second search as he sat in Capt. Fritz’s office by Dallas policeman Charles Truman ( CT ) Walker who told the HSCA in a 1978 interview that he “searched him good, but found nothing“.

This is the Commission’s evidence that Oswald boarded a bus after leaving the Texas School Book Depository.

A bus driver who wouldn’t identify him.

A teenage passenger who couldn’t identify him.

A woman who whose memory was damaged so badly from a previous stroke that she had to read from a script. She couldn’t remember what bus she was on.

Mr. BALL. Which bus did you catch ?

Mrs. BLEDSOE. Well, I don't remember whether it was the Marsalis or the Romana. ( 6 H 408 )

She could have been on another bus for all we know.

She claimed Oswald’s wife was Spanish.
She claimed all the buttons on his shirt were torn off.
She claimed his face was distorted.
Poor thing, the only thing distorted was her memory.
This was a witness who obviously had suffered brain damage.

And there’s the bus transfer that was taken from Oswald after his pockets had been emptied, he was searched twice without any mention of a bus transfer and was issued from a transfer book that eventually vanished into thin air.

This is the “evidence” that forms the foundation of the Commission’s conclusion that Oswald boarded a bus to escape the scene of the assassination.

An unreliable witness.

Lying police officers.

A disappearing transfer book.

It all makes a great fairy tale.

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Guest]

I'll probably never understand LHO's intentions.

If he was on the run : wouldn't he have the cab waiting outside at his rooming house (apparently he badly needed his revolver) and next have the cab take him outside the city asap, or have the cab take him to the greyhound station ?

So, why did he decide to continue on foot ? 

If he had a meeting planned nearby I could understand.

I just don't get where he would be going otherwise.

But also, getting his revolver was a loss of time (for one on the run), if he had the cab taken him directly to the greyhound bus station... etc).

His movements just don't make much sense

 

About the timing, for all I know it is all possible, be it very close, but certainly possible

It's just the logic I'm missing somewhere... but that's HO I suppose....

 

 

 

 

[Gil Jesus]

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I'll probably never understand LHO's intentions.

If he was on the run : wouldn't he have the cab waiting outside at his rooming house (apparently he badly needed his revolver) and next have the cab take him outside the city asap, or have the cab take him to the greyhound station ?

So, why did he decide to continue on foot ? 

If he had a meeting planned nearby I could understand.

I just don't get where he would be going otherwise.

But also, getting his revolver was a loss of time (for one on the run), if he had the cab taken him directly to the greyhound bus station... etc).

His movements just don't make much sense

 

About the timing, for all I know it is all possible, be it very close, but certainly possible

It's just the logic I'm missing somewhere... but that's HO I suppose....

 

 

 

 

The Warren Commission used circular reasoning in their case against Oswald. Its supporters use it to defend the Commission as well.

Normal reasoning starts with a premise that is proven and leads to a conclusion. Circular reasoning starts with a conclusion, accepts it as fact without physical proof, then circles back to the premise using the conclusion as proof of the premise.

For example, McWatters handing the transfer to Oswald would result in the Dallas Police finding it on his person.

That's normal reasoning.

Circular reasoning says because police said they found McWatters' bus transfer on Oswald, that means McWatters handed it to him.

It doesn't matter to these people that McWatters testified that Oswald was NOT the man he gave the transfer to, or that Oswald was NOT even the man who got on his bus, the fact that the police said so is the proof.

And any evidence to the contrary they completely ignore.

Just like the coverup Commission they defend.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Gil Jesus

[Guest]

One can ask oneself a bunch of questions, one that keeps bothering me is the revolver scenario...

If Oswald did it (shot JFK that is), and he had it planned ?

A plan would have included an escape ?

If yes, would that plan would have included getting his revolver at his rooming house ?

Mmmm.... bad plan……

I can make a number of assumptions on alleged plans, but getting his revolver is just hard to fit in a premeditated plan, it almost makes any plan looks stupid,

The revolver part just doesn’t work for me in such a case.

I can assume he decided to get it because he (suddenly ?) felt in danger (he could have known that, if it was all planned…), because something suddenly went bad (by his doing or anyone else… don't know).

So if someone has an explanation as to why got the revolver (i.s.o. taking the cab outside Dalles or something like that)

I'm just trying to make some sense... but it isn't really working 😃

PS :

1) I'm not taking sides, I'm all about hearing/reading all options/choises/explanations, no matter what, I'll listen

2)  I have a general dislike for terms like LNT, CT,... but that's just me,  I would like to think we were done with putting labels on people,  that has never been a good idea i.m.o., the whole thing divides... it's looking pro or contra most of the time, not going anywhere from where we are.  

Edited September 10, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Mark Ulrik]

15 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

It all makes a great fairy tale.

Let's hear your fairy tale for a change. How do you think he got from the TSBD to the TT where he was arrested?

Edited September 10, 2022 by Mark Ulrik

[Ron Ege]

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

One can ask oneself a bunch of questions, one that keeps bothering me is the revolver scenario...

If Oswald did it (shot JFK that is), and he had it planned ?

A plan would have included an escape ?

If yes, would that plan would have included getting his revolver at his rooming house ?

Mmmm.... bad plan……

I can make a number of assumptions on alleged plans, but getting his revolver is just hard to fit in a premeditated plan, it almost makes any plan looks stupid,

The revolver part just doesn’t work for me in such a case.

I can assume he decided to get it because he (suddenly ?) felt in danger (he could have known that, if it was all planned…), because something suddenly went bad (by his doing or anyone else… don't know).

So if someone has an explanation as to why got the revolver (i.s.o. taking the cab outside Dalles or something like that)

I'm just trying to make some sense... but it isn't really working 😃

PS :

1) I'm not taking sides, I'm all about hearing/reading all options/choises/explanations, no matter what, I'll listen

2)  I have a general dislike for terms like LNT, CT,... I would like to think we were done with putting labels on people  that has never been a good idea i.m.o.

3 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

One can ask oneself a bunch of questions, one that keeps bothering me is the revolver scenario...

If Oswald did it (shot JFK that is), and he had it planned ?

A plan would have included an escape ?

If yes, would that plan would have included getting his revolver at his rooming house ?

Mmmm.... bad plan……

I can make a number of assumptions on alleged plans, but getting his revolver is just hard to fit in a premeditated plan, it almost makes any plan looks stupid,

The revolver part just doesn’t work for me in such a case.

I can assume he decided to get it because he (suddenly ?) felt in danger (he could have known that, if it was all planned…), because something suddenly went bad (by his doing or anyone else… don't know).

So if someone has an explanation as to why got the revolver (i.s.o. taking the cab outside Dalles or something like that)

I'm just trying to make some sense... but it isn't really working 😃

PS :

1) I'm not taking sides, I'm all about hearing/reading all options/choises/explanations, no matter what, I'll listen

2)  I have a general dislike for terms like LNT, CT,... I would like to think we were done with putting labels on people  that has never been a good idea i.m.o.

Some have hypothesized that the assassination was a false flag operation.  If so, with or without Oswald's prior knowledge of same, his actions seem to make more sense - regardless of which conveyance he may have used to get the rooming house.

Maybe I've missed it, but maybe those more learned here, would be able to positively state whether he used the cab or the bus?  For me, the bus seems to be a non-starter.  Cab less so, but still. 

Maybe I've also missed reading about the "after actions" of other "lone assassins", but which one, after assassinating a head of state by his own hand, and there being NO foreknowledge thereof by others, goes to a nearly empty movie theatre and sits serially, right next to - what was it, three different patrons, one a pregnant woman, and then gets up to find someone else to sit next to?  Hm-m.

I vote for LHO realizing he had been "hoodwinked/hornswoggled".  If so, his post assassination actions seem to indicate a combination of preplanning/"making it up on the run" (the rooming house stop).

Hence, to many, his alleged "escape plan" appears discombobulated.  So. many of us are now left with feeling "bumfuzzled".

 

 

 

[Pete Mellor]

Bill's thread begins with "The Secret Service and the FBI reconstructed Oswald's steps"

Sadly, in the JFK case the Secret Service and the FBI do not fill me with any kind of confidence of their integrity or diligence in getting to any kind of truth.

The FBI clearly had their verdict within hours and steered the Warren Commission as well as the DPD to their agenda.  Hoover filtered and suppressed evidence that did not point to the lone assassin conclusion.  The FBI's reconstruction of Oswald's supposed journey from the sniper's nest to the 2nd floor lunchroom, along with the timing of Baker's arrival at same was made to fit up Oswald and any evidence to challenge this supposition was quashed.  Hoover's agenda of no conspiracy & three shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD, fired from the Carcano rifle, ignoring Teague as long as possible, ignoring ballistic evidence and suppressing spectrographic analyses etc., etc.

As for the Secret Service, just ask Abraham Bolden.  What integrity do they have as late as the 1990's with their destruction of documents required by the A.R.R.B.?

Not to mention the service that CIA provided for the H.S.C.A.

Any faith in trotting out theories propounded by these government agencies, be they in the JFK, RFK or MLK cases are incomprehensible to me.

[Steve Thomas]

For me, it matters less how Oswald got to Beckley from the Depository, then finding the answers to two questions:

Until someone can definitively answer these two questions, for me, the whole point is moot.

1) How did the Police first learn that Oswald lived at 1026 N. Beckley, and,

2) Why, when the police arrived there, were they looking for Harvey Lee Oswald"

According to Will Fritz, someone, whose name he could not remember gave him Oswald's Beckley address before he began interrogating Oswald:

WC testimony of Will Fritz (4H207)

Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.

 

Sheriff Decker's file on the assassination, given to the Warren Commission list the assailant's name as "Harvey Lee Oswald"

(12H51) (CE 5323) Deposition of Sheriff Decker dark brown heavy folder with a label on the outside: Harvey Lee Oswald.

WC testimony of Earlene Roberts April 8, 1964

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/robertse.htm

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the day the President was shot?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I remember it---who would forget that?
Mr. BALL. And the police officers came out there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what they said?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, it was Will Fritz' men---it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.
Mr. BALL. What did they say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mrs. ROBERTS. And he says, "I don't know, I'll have to call the housekeeper," and he called me and I went and got the books and I said, "No; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me remember and I couldn't, and Mrs. Johnson come in in the meantime and there wasn't nobody there by that name, and Mrs. Johnson said, "Mrs. Roberts, don't you have him?" And, I said, "No; we don't, for here is my book and there is nobody there by that name." We checked it back a year.
Mr. BALL. And you didn't have that name you didn't ever know his name was Lee Oswald?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No---he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.

Did Fritz make up the story about an officer telling him out in the hall before he went in to interview Oswald the first time that Oswald lived on Beckley? Did he get the name Harvey Lee Oswald and that he lived on Beckley from Decker when he stopped in to see Decker on his way back from the TSBD?

 

Steve Thomas

[Kirk Gallaway]

8 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

One can ask oneself a bunch of questions, one that keeps bothering me is the revolver scenario...

If Oswald did it (shot JFK that is), and he had it planned ?

A plan would have included an escape ?

If yes, would that plan would have included getting his revolver at his rooming house ?

Mmmm.... bad plan……

I can make a number of assumptions on alleged plans, but getting his revolver is just hard to fit in a premeditated plan, it almost makes any plan looks stupid,

The revolver part just doesn’t work for me in such a case.

I can assume he decided to get it because he (suddenly ?) felt in danger (he could have known that, if it was all planned…), because something suddenly went bad (by his doing or anyone else… don't know).

So if someone has an explanation as to why got the revolver (i.s.o. taking the cab outside Dalles or something like that)

I'm just trying to make some sense... but it isn't really working 😃

PS :

1) I'm not taking sides, I'm all about hearing/reading all options/choises/explanations, no matter what, I'll listen

2)  I have a general dislike for terms like LNT, CT,... but that's just me,  I would like to think we were done with putting labels on people,  that has never been a good idea i.m.o., the whole thing divides... it's looking pro or contra most of the time, not going anywhere from where we are.  

Well put Jean Paul!  I've often wondered this. LNers would say everything Oswald did was poorly planned that day. i also tend to agree that something lead Oswald to think he was being set up. But what was that?.

It reminds me of a mystery quiz I heard  many years ago.

A husband gets up in the morning to go to work leaving his wife sleeping in bed. At some point on the way to work, the husband turns around and goes back home, finding his wife in bed with another man, and shoots both of them!

What  lead to the husband turning around to go back home? You can only ask questions that can be answered with a "yes" or a "no".

My intention is not to sidetrack this thread with this, so i won't. Though this  does involve similar sleuthing skills.

And it's kind of ingenious, So I'm not going to spoil it by revealing it, unless others want to make another thread of it. If anybody has heard this, and knows the answer to this. Please  don't spoil it.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Kirk Gallaway

[Tom Gram]

This thread has some very interesting  information on the transfer ticket you won’t find anywhere else, courtesy of Ed Ledoux and others at ROKC. 

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1132-dallas-transit-transfer

Edited September 10, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Bill Brown]

13 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I'll probably never understand LHO's intentions.

If he was on the run : wouldn't he have the cab waiting outside at his rooming house (apparently he badly needed his revolver) and next have the cab take him outside the city asap, or have the cab take him to the greyhound station ?

So, why did he decide to continue on foot ? 

If he had a meeting planned nearby I could understand.

I just don't get where he would be going otherwise.

But also, getting his revolver was a loss of time (for one on the run), if he had the cab taken him directly to the greyhound bus station... etc).

His movements just don't make much sense

 

About the timing, for all I know it is all possible, be it very close, but certainly possible

It's just the logic I'm missing somewhere... but that's HO I suppose....

 

 

 

 

 

When Oswald first boarded Whaley's cab, he gave Whaley a destination five blocks past the rooming house.  Once they passed the rooming house and reached a point three blocks past, Oswald told Whaley to pull over and let him out (getting out of the cab two blocks short of the original destination).

 

To me, this is obvious... Oswald wanted the cab to go past the rooming house (versus actually stopping there) in case the authorities were waiting for him there.  They weren't, but he couldn't know that.  Therefore, Oswald couldn't have had the cab wait for him out front of the rooming house while he went inside.