Mk Ultra - Stephen Kinzer

[Ron Bulman]

7 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ron,

     I attended a lecture by Flora Rheta Schreiber during my (?) freshman year at Brown.  Her famous book, Sybil, played a major role in raising public awareness of MPD.

     Dissociative disorders are real, but people need to observe them to understand that reality.  We all have alter personalities, (a 5 year old self, a 12 year old, 18 year old, etc.) but those of us who have had relatively trauma-free childhoods have merged our alter personalities into an integrated, co-conscious sense of self over time.   We remember who we are and what we have done from moment to moment and day to day in an integrated life narrative.  (Not counting alcoholic black outs, of course.)

     Dissociative people don't.  They may do things in one ego state-- driving somewhere, buying things, etc.-- for which they have no memory in another ego state.

     As I once heard Dr. Martin Orne say, (in a lecture here at our Colorado State Hospital in 1987) "The sine qua non of dissociation is amnesia."

     That's why Sirhan's amnesia for the Ambassador Hotel shooting doesn't necessarily seem far-fetched to me-- especially if his amnesia was induced by a post-hypnotic suggestion.

     Susceptible people do strange things as a result of post-hypnotic suggestions, and they can also be programmed to have total amnesia for the suggestion itself.

     George Estabrooks' 1943 Hypnosis textbook has numerous examples of this phenomenon.  It's a fascinating read.

     (I also wonder if the U.S. military, and/or CIA didn't want the public to know about Estabrooks' work-- especially the "Manchurian candidate" part.)

Hypnotism by George Hoben Estabrooks - 5 | PDF | Hypnosis | E Books (scribd.com)

So, we end up with Dr. Jolyon West programing a US Soldier to rape and kill a three year old, with no memory of it.  Put to death himself for it.  In the name of MKULTRA 

[Guest]

@Benjamin Cole I know we all like a back and forth here but, the hypnotism question surely is settled. 
 

Do you acknowledge that people can be hypnotised? If so, why is it that they couldn’t be made to fire a gun? What is preventing it? 
 

As for requesting a body of experiments to prove it, do you really think that’s in the interest of Dr’s to prove the state can do this? Is it in the interest of MSM or the media networks to produce doc’s or TV to prove it? 
 

What if these suicide bombers are in a hypnotic state? Or these guys crashing planes? The point is, Sirhan is likely not the only one. And from memory he was intoxicated at the time (I would need to check that as its been ages since I watched a doc of read a book on the case). He’d have been in a more suggestible state when he met the girl in the polka dot dress. Sirhan had already been seeking hypnotism through the Rosicrucians.. 

I think the idea that a hypnotised person firing a gun is not really in question. I know Milton disagrees with Estabrooks on what was possible. We are talking about quite basic stuff. IMHO mind control, mass psychosis, mass coercion, and hypnotism are all arts that are seldom spoken about of publicised, my conclusion is that they are at use, that is why. The human mind is very vulnerable and susceptible. Our ego’s think its a fortress but, it isn’t. 
 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

15 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

   People have to understand dissociative phenomenology to appreciate how Dr. Daniel Brown cracked the Sirhan case.  His evidence is impressive and, in my opinion, conclusive.

   The reason it's important is that Brown was able to confirm that Estabrook's claims about hypnotically programming a suitable subject to shoot someone were actualized in the RFK assassination.

   Have you ever evaluated people with dissociative disorders, or studied the subject in any depth?

I think my knowledge of hypnosis and related topics is probably limited to Sirhan, the Brown presentations and perhaps some publications on MK Ultra. If I ever read anything else, I have forgotten about it. 

I never met an easily hypnotizable person, or practiced the art myself. 

I attended one commercial hypnosis show which appeared to be quite a success. I suspect the hypnotist used a through-the-air drug of some sort. I sat in the first row and felt some sort of easing. 

So that's it.  

On the other hand, I was financial reporter for years on medical companies, who go through the phase I, II, III trials before getting a drug approved.

In other words, the drugs are shown to work in larger and larger populations, in replicable experiments. (Despite slow-footedness, I think the FDA protocols are sensible.)

Interestingly, sometimes drugs have proved ineffective or to have too-large side effects even after receiving phase III approval.  

Most tricky seemed to be drugs to treat mental conditions, though I have no figures on it. You probably know about failed drugs. 

The Sirhan case is in the record, but I would not call it verified. And even the Sirhan case seems to have involved last-second prompting and use of drugs (alcohol at the minimum). 

There does not appear to be a case of a Manchurian candidate in the verifiable record.  Some guy who is programmed and then assassinates a public figure many weeks or months later 

I have to say, while programming Sirhan may have been possible and novel---really?

Bad guys: "I have a plan: Let's program a guy who works at the racetrack to shoot RFK"? 

What about Thane Eugene Cesar (the security guard who ducked behind RFK, as RFK was being shot)? Programmed also?  If he was a willing and sentient participant...that was rather risky, no? He might talk. 

Interesting topic.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[Benjamin Cole]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So, we end up with Dr. Jolyon West programing a US Soldier to rape and kill a three year old, with no memory of it.  Put to death himself for it.  In the name of MKULTRA 

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/24/cia-mkultra-louis-jolyon-west/

this story indicates West interviewed Shaver (the alleged rapist) after the event, but had not treated him before the event. 

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

@Benjamin Cole I know we all like a back and forth here but, the hypnotism question surely is settled. 
 

Do you acknowledge that people can be hypnotised? If so, why is it that they couldn’t be made to fire a gun? What is preventing it? 
 

As for requesting a body of experiments to prove it, do you really think that’s in the interest of Dr’s to prove the state can do this? Is it in the interest of MSM or the media networks to produce doc’s or TV to prove it? 
 

What if these suicide bombers are in a hypnotic state? Or these guys crashing planes? The point is, Sirhan is likely not the only one. And from memory he was intoxicated at the time (I would need to check that as its been ages since I watched a doc of read a book on the case). He’d have been in a more suggestible state when he met the girl in the polka dot dress. Sirhan had already been seeking hypnotism through the Rosicrucians.. 

I think the idea that a hypnotised person firing a gun is not really in question. I know Milton disagrees with Estabrooks on what was possible. We are talking about quite basic stuff. IMHO mind control, mass psychosis, mass coercion, and hypnotism are all arts that are seldom spoken about of publicised, my conclusion is that they are at use, that is why. The human mind is very vulnerable and susceptible. Our ego’s think its a fortress but, it isn’t. 
 

 

CB-

 

Well, we may have to agree to disagree on this one. 

There seems to be scant verifiable record of Manchurian candidates--that is, people successfully programmed to commit a violent act weeks or months into the future, like automatons. 

Sirhan is an interesting case. But remember, it appears he was guided right up to the moment of the event, and possibly drugged, and certainly liquored up. 

And even so, there are no verifiable records of the programming of Sirhan. Only deduction, after the event. There is a hint of sophisticated voodoo in Dr. Brown, no?

I will re-watch the Sirhan-Brown Youtubes.

I am not ruling anything out, but Sirhan may prove only it is sometimes possible to program a subject who is very susceptible, and then only if you can also control or manipulate the subject right up to the moment of the event, and then also with the aid of alcohol and drugs.   

It is too bad the state never went after Eugene Thane Cesar tooth and nail, with truth drugs and all the rest, to find out his role, if any, in the RFKA.

Something happened to RFK, and we know that from the autopsy. Even if Sirhan was programmed, the second gunman has never been explained. 

 

 

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

There seems to be scant verifiable record of Manchurian candidates--that is, people successfully programmed to commit a violent act weeks or months into the future, like automatons. 

Isn’t that like saying there is scant verifiable evidence of joint chiefs of staff organising assassination teams to kill JFK? 
 

We know MK Ultra exists ✔️
We know of the experiments ✔️
We know Sirhan was seeming hypnosis off his own back ✔️
 

35 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

And even so, there are no verifiable records of the programming of Sirhan. Only deduction, after the event.

What are you expecting a confession of pre-meditated murder of a senator running for president? 
 

35 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

There is a hint of sophisticated voodoo in Dr. Brown, no?

He looks the real deal. Even if not convinced by Dr Brown, and what he extracted. Surely you have some deep questions about Sirhan and his role? 
 

35 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

It is too bad the state never went after Eugene Thane Cesar tooth and nail, with truth drugs and all the rest, to find out his role, if any, in the RFKA.

Something happened to RFK, and we know that from the autopsy. Even if Sirhan was programmed, the second gunman has never been explained. 

100% - RFK isn’t killed by Sirhan, just like Oswald, its important to explain what happened to the fall guy and exonerate him. 
 

I’ll ask again @Benjamin Cole, you surely accept that human beings can be hypnotised. What is it that is preventing the hypnotised subject from firing a gun? In Sirhan’s case making him think he is at a firing range. 
 

PS I don’t think we are necessarily disagreeing, only that you have taken a position that doesn’t begin to explain the circumstances around Sirhan firing blanks or live ammo in the Ambassador hotel pantry. What is posited in Lisa Pease’ book is highly probable. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Chris Barnard

[Benjamin Cole]

11 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

Isn’t that like saying there is scant verifiable evidence of joint chiefs of staff organising assassination teams to kill JFK? 
 

We know MK Ultra exists ✔️
We know of the experiments ✔️
We know Sirhan was seeming hypnosis off his own back ✔️
 

What are you expecting a confession of pre-meditated murder of a senator running for president? 
 

He looks the real deal. Even if not convinced by Dr Brown, and what he extracted. Surely you have some deep questions about Sirhan and his role? 
 

100% - RFK isn’t killed by Sirhan, just like Oswald, its important to explain what happened to the fall guy and exonerate him. 
 

I’ll ask again @Benjamin Cole, you surely accept that human beings can be hypnotised. What is it that is preventing the hypnotised subject from firing a gun? In Sirhan’s case making him think he is at a firing range. 
 

PS I don’t think we are necessarily disagreeing, only that you have taken a position that doesn’t begin to explain the circumstances around Sirhan firing blanks or live ammo in the Ambassador hotel pantry. What is posited in Lisa Pease’ book is highly probable. 

CB-

Let me review the Brown-RFK youtube again. 

The first time I watched it I got the "voodoo doctor" feeling from Dr. Brown.

Then I viewed his promotional webpage. 

Most true physicians are circumspect in their abilities, both due to results and in respect for the profession. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

CB-

Let me review the Brown-RFK youtube again. 

The first time I watched it I got the "voodoo doctor" feeling from Dr. Brown.

Then I viewed his promotional webpage. 

Most true physicians are circumspect in their abilities, both due to results and in respect for the profession. 

I feel like Brown is appalled by what he discovered and his treatment in the aftermath. He almost wells up (I think). The reality is that America isn’t the place he thought it was. 

[Benjamin Cole]

48 minutes ago, Chris Barnard said:

I feel like Brown is appalled by what he discovered and his treatment in the aftermath. He almost wells up (I think). The reality is that America isn’t the place he thought it was. 

OK, here is a brief review of the Brown Manchurian candidate Youtube. 

Brown and Laurie Dusek say Sirhan knew Morse code somehow.  That when Sirhan heard Morse code he would go into a trance, and write. But because he was in a trance, someone would have to move the paper under his pencil or pen. 

Then they say Sirhan was getting Morse code messages while at home, and that is when he wrote incriminating or inculpatory evidence in his notebooks. 

Wait a minute: So who moved the paper for Sirhan, when he was at home receiving the Morse code messages? (Sirhan had a short-wave radio). 

But Sirhan's brothers says he remembers Sirhan listening to the Morse code on the radio. But no mention of an assistant moving the notebooks. 

I do not know what to make of Brown's statements that every time he got on an airplane for many years his bags would be searched, withheld, or even directed to a nearby military base.

A United Airlines employee told him his bags were seized as he was part of the "Kennedy party." But Brown would not use the name "Kennedy" on his bags, or ID himself that way to an airline. This story makes no sense. An employee for UA would only be told to seize the bags of "Brown tag number 2-145," or something to that effect. 

Then Brown says he was told by an IRS agent that a senior Treasury Department had a "tag" on his name to harass him. 

Brown begins to sound a little nutty, like he has a persecution complex. 

The whole "Mob did it" angle rings phony too.  Is Brown just a disinformation plant? The Mob knows how to program people? And then arrange to have Cesar in place also? If the Mob was involved it was as a cut-out for intel agencies. Brown authoritatively recounts dubious tales of Joe Kennedy and Moe Dalitz, also as if fact. 

There are plenty of other soft spots in the Brown narrative, which can be dismissed due to time and lack of investigative resources, but nevertheless are concerning. They say Sirhan disappeared for two weeks after getting injured on a horse while riding in the fog, and that is when the heavy programming took place....but they really do not have that nailed down. Just vague family memories (if that) of an unexplained absence. 

Also, evidently Sirhan liked going to the gun range and firing away, as a hobby, long before the RFK. But he was really a gentle guy, they say. 

Maybe Sirhan was programmed, or maybe he was just used. 

I will say one thing: Usually, Brown is very persuasive. Skilled presenter, knowledge in how to make a case. 

Too bad Cesar was never seriously grilled. 

 

 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

       Apropos of this discussion about MK-Ultra, drug experimentation, and hypnosis, one thing I noticed when I studied John Mark's landmark 1975 book about MK-Ultra, The Search For the Manchurian Candidate, is that there were very few extant CIA records about the MK-Ultra hypnosis research.

        For example, there were no extant references to George Estabrooks, William Joseph Bryan, or Jolyon West.  Yet we know from other sources that all three of these psychiatrists/hypnotists were involved in some way with the U.S. military and/or CIA in the 1950s and 60s.  Jolyon West even corresponded, enthusiastically, with Gottlieb.

       Bryan bragged about knowing Sirhan.  Estabrooks bragged about his work for the U.S. military establishment.

       Richard Helms must have destroyed (or concealed) those "Manchurian candidate" hypnosis files.

       Then Sidney Gottlieb told the world that the CIA had had no success with their "mind control" experiments.

        I don't buy it.  IMO, Sirhan is living proof of Estabrooks' claims (from the 1940s) that suitable candidates could be hypnotically programmed as assassins.  

        

Edited September 17, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

17 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/24/cia-mkultra-louis-jolyon-west/

this story indicates West interviewed Shaver (the alleged rapist) after the event, but had not treated him before the event. 

West ran the testing program at the San Antonio AFB where soldiers were submitted to unauthorized tests.  From whence he was "promoted" to head of the Psychiatry Department at OU, with no teaching experience.  Where he OD'd the elephant on LSD and ultimately imposed himself on Jack Ruby after initial rejection.  Causing him great consternation and paranoia.  Before going to Frisco for the summer of love.  Then LA where Sirhan met Bobby.  Communicating with Gottlieb for funding the whole time.  Draw your own conclusions, as I, sure you will.

[Robbie Robertson]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:02 AM, Ron Bulman said:

So, we end up with Dr. Jolyon West programing a US Soldier to rape and kill a three year old, with no memory of it.  Put to death himself for it.  In the name of MKULTRA 

One thing to understand about this program is that the three year old girl who died was not on purpose.

 

using lsd and drugs were Intended to brain wash but it was failed because it was unpredictable on what would affect who in different ways. But the program became a way to use lsd to shatter someone’s reality if you look at people who were being used on in the beginning and towards the end all fit a certain description despite personality disorders but just mental health issues in general.

 

military were tested on because they work for them and was a bonus if you had a headache issue like in the three year old girl case where you are seeking any sort of treatment for your headaches including experimental. Look into the dark history of psychiatry and just like mkultra they tested at prisons and mental institutions because they would be taken less serious than a candidate that was a part of the general public. 
 

I’ve seen some documents on what they have on mkultra but I prefer more documentation in most cases and for this one besides the hearing on mkultra where joylon west lied and threatened to sue anyone who said he was involved till he died, Tom O’Neil who exposed some stuff on bugilosi also got foia files on the correspondence from west to Gottlieb who ran the program. That stuff wasn’t disclosed because it was top secret which sucks but thank god for journalists who are doing the work to get this known.