Mk Ultra - Stephen Kinzer

[Robbie Robertson]

Stephen Kinzer is an American author, journalist, and academic. A former New York Times correspondent, he has published several books, and writes for several newspapers and news agencies. Stephen discusses his book "Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control" about The visionary chemist Sidney Gottlieb was the CIA’s master magician and gentlehearted torturer―the agency’s “poisoner in chief.” As head of the MK-ULTRA mind control project, he directed brutal experiments at secret prisons on three continents. He made pills, powders, and potions that could kill or maim without a trace―including some intended for Fidel Castro and other foreign leaders.
 

Out Of The Blank #1209 - Stephen Kinzer
https://youtu.be/CTwXvWFaDt4

 

[Ron Bulman]

I can't watch it right this minute but this should be a good one.  The book is excellent imho.

[Guest]

I read Kinzer’s book on Gottlieb, looking forward to this podcast. 

[Henry Frost]

Why am I not surprised Allen Dulles was involved.

One of my favourite movies is the 1962 The Manchurian Candidate.  Back then they called it brainwashing, and it was the bad guys that were doing it.

[Ron Bulman]

Another home run Robbie.  I want to read The Brothers now, actually have for a while.

The aspect of Gottlieb being "plausibly deniable" to the east coast elite of the CIA I'd forgotten about.  He does allude to the Frank Olson out the window/Wormwood incident without going into any detail.  Gottlieb recruiting/studying/working with the Natzi concentration camp experimenters and the Japanese is important. 

I thought he was not going to mention it but Gottlieb taking LSD 200 times was an eye opener for me.  He liked it, found it enlightening.  Maybe it helped him deal with OD'ing others on it along with the sensory deprivation and more.  If I remember right from the book, not mentioned is after the NYC safehouse (apartment) for experiments was exposed and shut down, he then hired George Hunter White to develop the one in San Francisco.  Which he visited to supervise occasionally and partake in the LSD, and hookers available. 

I also thought one of his kids did open up a bit, about them discovering a secret gun room in the house with an extensive collection of unique weapons.

I have to wonder.  It was great listening to Dr. Kinzer, informative and engaging.  But accepting Gottlieb's conclusion that after 20 years of torture and killing nothing could alter or brainwash a mind as questionable.  What would one expect him to say.  He destroyed the records with his mentor Helms blessing or instruction.  If they learned anything would they tell us?  Or would that fall under "sources and methods"? 

I still wonder about Jolyon West's visits to Jack Ruby and his sudden breakdown.  As well as Sirhan's "treatment" after his minor fall from the racehorse.  Dr. Kinzer never went in to Gottlieb experimenting through West and others in hypnotism, or the combination of it and drugs other than LSD.  Remember, West OD'd the elephant.  

Might be worth another show.  Thanks.    

[Robbie Robertson]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Another home run Robbie.  I want to read The Brothers now, actually have for a while.

The aspect of Gottlieb being "plausibly deniable" to the east coast elite of the CIA I'd forgotten about.  He does allude to the Frank Olson out the window/Wormwood incident without going into any detail.  Gottlieb recruiting/studying/working with the Natzi concentration camp experimenters and the Japanese is important. 

I thought he was not going to mention it but Gottlieb taking LSD 200 times was an eye opener for me.  He liked it, found it enlightening.  Maybe it helped him deal with OD'ing others on it along with the sensory deprivation and more.  If I remember right from the book, not mentioned is after the NYC safehouse (apartment) for experiments was exposed and shut down, he then hired George Hunter White to develop the one in San Francisco.  Which he visited to supervise occasionally and partake in the LSD, and hookers available. 

I also thought one of his kids did open up a bit, about them discovering a secret gun room in the house with an extensive collection of unique weapons.

I have to wonder.  It was great listening to Dr. Kinzer, informative and engaging.  But accepting Gottlieb's conclusion that after 20 years of torture and killing nothing could alter or brainwash a mind as questionable.  What would one expect him to say.  He destroyed the records with his mentor Helms blessing or instruction.  If they learned anything would they tell us?  Or would that fall under "sources and methods"? 

I still wonder about Jolyon West's visits to Jack Ruby and his sudden breakdown.  As well as Sirhan's "treatment" after his minor fall from the racehorse.  Dr. Kinzer never went in to Gottlieb experimenting through West and others in hypnotism, or the combination of it and drugs other than LSD.  Remember, West OD'd the elephant.  

Might be worth another show.  Thanks.    

I asked about the relationship of joylon west and he didn’t know a lot he stuck to the life of Gottlieb but he did mention records at the university that Joylon worked at having letters to Gottlieb about taking these projects into the world. 

[Michael Griffith]

The three books that changed my mind and opened my eyes about an MK-ULTRA role in the JFK and RFK cases are Lisa Pease's 2018 book A Lie Too Big Too Fail: The Real History of the Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Tim Tate and Brad Johnson's 2020 book The Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, and Patrick Nolan's 2013 book CIA Rogues and the Killing of the Kennedys.

[W. Niederhut]

22 hours ago, Robbie Robertson said:

I asked about the relationship of joylon west and he didn’t know a lot he stuck to the life of Gottlieb but he did mention records at the university that Joylon worked at having letters to Gottlieb about taking these projects into the world. 

Great interview of Kinzer, Robbie!

If I recall correctly, former UCLA Neuropsychiatry Chairman Dr. Jolyon West did correspond with Gottlieb, but Richard Helms apparently destroyed any CIA records of Jolyon West's involvement in MK-Ultra.

Another book on the subject that I have read, (based on the MK-Ultra records that weren't destroyed by Helms) is John Marks' 1975 book, The Search For the Manchurian Candidate.

We had an interesting thread here a few months ago about the writings of the Canadian American hypnosis expert, Dr. George Estabrooks, who worked with the U.S. military during and after WWII.  Estabrooks made a number of claims (which I read about in his Hypnosis textbook from the 1940s) about his ability to hypnotize suitable subjects for espionage work and even assassinations-- i.e., Manchurian candidates.

The book is out-of-print, and curiously unknown.  (I found a copy on SCRIBD.)

Dr. William Joseph Bryan was another CIA-affiliated hypnotist who, apparently, believed in Estabrooks' Manchurian candidate hypnosis methods.  (Bryan may have been involved with Sirhan Sirhan's "Manchurian" programming.)

Unfortunately, there are no references to Estabrooks or Bryan in John Marks' opus on the extant MK-Ultra files.

In any case, I'm not convinced that Gottlieb was telling the truth when he declared that the CIA (and MK-Ultra) had failed in their efforts to achieve mind control.

As Chris Barnard pointed out, Dr. Daniel Brown found compelling evidence that Sirhan was effectively programmed, through hypnosis, to fire a gun at RFK.

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Robbie Robertson]

4 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Great interview of Kinzer, Robbie!

If I recall correctly, former UCLA Neuropsychiatry Chairman Dr. Jolyon West did correspond with Gottlieb, but Richard Helms apparently destroyed any CIA records of Jolyon West's involvement in MK-Ultra.

Another book on the subject that I have read, (based on the MK-Ultra records that weren't destroyed by Helms) is John Marks' 1975 book, The Search For the Manchurian Candidate.

We had an interesting thread here a few months ago about the writings of the Canadian American hypnosis expert, Dr. George Estabrooks, who worked with the U.S. military during and after WWII.  Estabrooks made a number of claims (which I read about in his Hypnosis textbook from the 1940s) about his ability to hypnotize suitable subjects for espionage work and even assassinations-- i.e., Manchurian candidates.

The book is out-of-print, and curiously unknown.  (I found a copy on SCRIBD.)

Dr. William Joseph Bryan was another CIA-affiliated hypnotist who, apparently, believed in Estabrooks' Manchurian candidate hypnosis methods.  (Bryan may have been involved with Sirhan Sirhan's "Manchurian" programming.)

Unfortunately, there are no references to Estabrooks or Bryan in John Marks' opus on the extant MK-Ultra files.

In any case, I'm not convinced that Gottlieb was telling the truth when he declared that the CIA (and MK-Ultra) had failed in their efforts to achieve mind control.

As Chris Barnard pointed out, Dr. Daniel Brown found compelling evidence that Sirhan was effectively programmed, through hypnosis, to fire a gun at RFK.

 

Glad you liked it I’m definitely interested in the MKULTRA and LSD stuff in our history and have a few episodes coming up about it. If you or anyone has any name recommendations i did get some comments on Mr. Kinzer episode about it being not true and a conspiracy but can’t please everyone 

[Benjamin Cole]

Have there been documented cases of mind control, in which the putative control extended beyond a few days? 

That is, a documented case of a person programmed with a suggestion, who months later acted upon that suggestion? 

Do we have any idea of the success rate of such mind-control efforts? That is, is failure the norm, but there are exceptions? 

There is the standard of replicable experiments....has anybody publicly and reliably performed replicable experiments in this field? 

 

[Robbie Robertson]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Have there been documented cases of mind control, in which the putative control extended beyond a few days? 

That is, a documented case of a person programmed with a suggestion, who months later acted upon that suggestion? 

Do we have any idea of the success rate of such mind-control efforts? That is, is failure the norm, but there are exceptions? 

There is the standard of replicable experiments....has anybody publicly and reliably performed replicable experiments in this field? 

 

It’s not new you can see that in Louis joylon west bio here 

 

West's work on brainwashing techniques allowed him to exonerate U.S. servicemen under suspicion of treason for making false confessions during the Korean War-era. This brought him to the attention of the CIA. He pioneered research into the use and abuse of LSD.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Jolyon_West
 

[W. Niederhut]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Have there been documented cases of mind control, in which the putative control extended beyond a few days? 

 

 

Sirhan.

[Robbie Robertson]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Have there been documented cases of mind control, in which the putative control extended beyond a few days? 

That is, a documented case of a person programmed with a suggestion, who months later acted upon that suggestion? 

Do we have any idea of the success rate of such mind-control efforts? That is, is failure the norm, but there are exceptions? 

There is the standard of replicable experiments....has anybody publicly and reliably performed replicable experiments in this field? 

 

The intercept also has the jimmy shaver case murder and rape of a 3 year old after seeing west 

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/24/cia-mkultra-louis-jolyon-west/

 

[Jamey Flanagan]

Haven't read the book, but I own a copy of RFK Must Die! and I firmly believe that Sirhan was most definitely under hypnosis at the time of the shooting. I honestly don't think Sirhan fired a shot. I think his gun had blanks loaded into them. Like movie prop guns. Many witnesses say they say pieces of paper floating around all over the place, like confetti, and I've read that these blanks like Hollywood prop guns fire have confetti inside them. And then if you come to the conclusion that there had to be other assassins firing weapons in that pantry, and consider whether or not they would have wanted to be in the crossfire of a crazy man firing wild shots that could hit them too then it just doesn't make sense. I think Sirhan was just the distraction. Like magicians they used sleight of hand. The distraction in front capturing the attention of everyone while the real killers fire from behind. I've also heard many say that Oswald was under hypnosis at the time of the assassination but I don't know about that. Unless you subscribe to the Harvey & Lee theory and say Lee was under hypnosis. Harvey in that equation was too thoroughly set up for him to have even participated under hypnosis. No indication he had even fired a weapon that day! But, I have read in many different places that Dave Ferrie was a pretty good hypnotist, and whether Ferrie had anything to do with Oswald's killing or not, I do believe that Ruby was under hypnosis at the time he shot Oswald!

[Guest]

@Robbie Robertsonanother great podcast, very much enjoyed it. 
 

I reckon Dr Daniel Brown would be a great guest and opening up the hypnosis conversation.