Mk Ultra - Stephen Kinzer

[Benjamin Cole]

10 hours ago, W. Niederhut said:

Sirhan.

Well...based on the analysis Daniel Brown, who interviewed Sirhan decades after the event. 

That is not a replicable experiment.  

I would prefer something like a test of 100 subjects, who given a specific suggestion for an event two months out. What fraction actually fulfill the suggestion, as recorded by a team of skeptical or objective researchers. 

Repeat the 100-person experiment several times over, maybe even dozens of times, perhaps generating a profile of the suggestible.  

Unfortunately, nothing like this has been done. 

We are left with one-offs, which may or may not be true. 

I do wonder if the polka-dot dress girl gave Sirhan not only drinks but a drug, and hinted a sexual favors to boot. Maybe that worked. But that was moments before the attack. 

The autopsy in the RFK case appears solid, and concluded shots from behind struck RFK.  That seems to prove a second gunman, although even earnest witness next to RFK do not report such a gunman. Very puzzling 

 

 

[W. Niederhut]

5 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

@Robbie Robertsonanother great podcast, very much enjoyed it. 
 

I reckon Dr Daniel Brown would be a great guest and opening up the hypnosis conversation. 

Brown's evaluation of Sirhan is remarkable-- truly stellar forensic work.

Anyone interested in the Manchurian candidate literature should read Brown's Sirhan report and/or listen to his commentary (above) on the case.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Unfortunately, nothing like this has been done. 

We are left with one-offs, which may or may not be true. 

 

The trouble is; that the type of organisations that are capable of developing and enhancing such techniques for malevolent means, are security agencies like the CIA with huge budgets and secrecy laws. If such a technique is perfected and replicable, its not the kind of thing that will be declassified, ever. You are not likely to hear about it or see a review of its efficacy on Trust Pilot. We can ask deep questions about other assassinations or attempts, the perps who blacked out and had no recollection of their deeds but, as @W. Niederhutpointed out in his original thread, there were methods like “locking” used by GH Estabrooks, to stop our spies from being hypnotised. Its my opinion that there is a lot more to it. I think this whole topic can veer into how groups or the masses are communicated with and coerced. Isn’t it a little eerie how a Trump or Obama crowd at a rally is all glassy eyed, cheering and chanting, repeating the words of a leader, like something from a Jim Jones type cult? The CIA involvement in the 1960’s with such cults needs to be looked at more closely, they were ideal testing grounds and control groups. 
 

To me it seems highly probable that such techniques have been refined and utilised. Psychologist Joost Meerloo’s “The rape of the mind” explains how human beings are broken down in captivity using non physical techniques to get them to sign false confessions, and they don’t even remember doing it or why they did it. This has been going on since the Korean war.

 

To me, the truth is that the human mind is extremely vulnerable and I believe that 20% are extremely suggestible. We all probably knew a couple of people like that at school, like the lights were on but, nobody is home. Sirhan seems exactly like that. I get that these dark arts have been stigmatised in movies as fantasy, that’s exactly what you would do to deflect their existence. Most people think they can’t be hypnotised, and the truth is that most people can. Most people think they are free, independent thinkers, yet a short time ago in history we were persecuting Witches and burning/drowning them, regardless of guilt. We have to explain such events some how, we know that people can be put under hypnosis and be put into a mass psychosis. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

The trouble is; that the type of organisations that are capable of developing and enhancing such techniques for malevolent means, are security agencies like the CIA with huge budgets and secrecy laws. If such a technique is perfected and replicable, its not the kind of thing that will be declassified, ever. You are not likely to hear about it or see a review of its efficacy on Trust Pilot. We can ask deep questions about other assassinations or attempts, the perps who blacked out and had no recollection of their deeds but, as @W. Niederhutpointed out in his original thread, there were methods like “locking” used by GH Estabrooks, to stop our spies from being hypnotised. Its my opinion that there is a lot more to it. I think this whole topic can veer into how groups or the masses are communicated with and coerced. Isn’t it a little eerie how a Trump or Obama crowd at a rally is all glassy eyed, cheering and chanting, repeating the words of a leader, like something from a Jim Jones type cult? The CIA involvement in the 1960’s with such cults needs to be looked at more closely, they were ideal testing grounds and control groups. 
 

To me it seems highly probable that such techniques have been refined and utilised. Psychologist Joost Meerloo’s “The rape of the mind” explains how human beings are broken down in captivity using non physical techniques to get them to sign false confessions, and they don’t even remember doing it or why they did it. This has been going on since the Korean war.

 

To me, the truth is that the human mind is extremely vulnerable and I believe that 20% are extremely suggestible. We all probably knew a couple of people like that at school, like the lights were on but, nobody is home. Sirhan seems exactly like that. I get that these dark arts have been stigmatised in movies as fantasy, that’s exactly what you would do to deflect their existence. Most people think they can’t be hypnotised, and the truth is that most people can. Most people think they are free, independent thinkers, yet a short time ago in history we were persecuting Witches and burning/drowning them, regardless of guilt. We have to explain such events some how, we know that people can be put under hypnosis and be put into a mass psychosis. 

Chris B.-

Certainly you could be right. 

What I am saying is that the Manchurian Candidate field seeks sketchy. 

Even Daniel Brown has a promotional aspect to his career. https://www.drdanielpbrown.com/

I do not think asking for replicable experiments is too much to ask in medical sciences. 

You know, people now say there are UFOs. But we have yet to see a single authentic photo or video of a UFO.

We get the grainy infra-red or radar images, and who knows if they can be gimmicked by bored Navy personnel. 

Webcams are everywhere, and certainly could be put on airplanes. Still no images. 

Well, so it goes. 

 

 

 

[Robbie Robertson]

6 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Chris B.-

Certainly you could be right. 

What I am saying is that the Manchurian Candidate field seeks sketchy. 

Even Daniel Brown has a promotional aspect to his career. https://www.drdanielpbrown.com/

I do not think asking for replicable experiments is too much to ask in medical sciences. 

You know, people now say there are UFOs. But we have yet to see a single authentic photo or video of a UFO.

We get the grainy infra-red or radar images, and who knows if they can be gimmicked by bored Navy personnel. 

Webcams are everywhere, and certainly could be put on airplanes. Still no images. 

Well, so it goes. 

 

 

 

People tried but hard when we are quick in labeling conspiracy 

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/montreal/2018/5/20/1_3938447.html

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Robbie Robertson said:

People tried but hard when we are quick in labeling conspiracy 

https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/montreal/2018/5/20/1_3938447.html

Cameron was keeping people asleep for 50 days at a time to see if he could erase their memories. It worked, people 30 years of age had to be trained to use a toilet properly again, they had no memory of their former lives after the experiments. He also sexually abused some of the patients. 
 

Ted Kyzinski and Whitey Bulger (both on the 10 most wanted list) were both subjected to MK Ultra experiments, Bulger in prison and Kyzinski at Harvard (I think). I think MK Ultra and Artichoke/Bluebird spanned such a wide spectrum. 

Some of the things would have got them tried and hung at Nuremberg. 

[Benjamin Cole]

For sure, horrible experiments were done, and may still be.   

That is different from the ability, with a high probability of success, of programming someone to commit a specific act several months down the road. 

I think some researchers are on to something when they say Sirhan appeared very hypnotizable. On the other hand, it could just be a con's con.  A sample of one is not proof of anything. Dr. Brown's supreme confidence has a bit of the snake oil in it. 

Perhaps there are subsets of the population, perhaps very small subsets, who can become human torpedoes. But maybe not. 

Did the programmers of Sirhan just luck into Sirhan?  "Let's program this guy to shoot t RFK"? Seems like a long, long shot. 

I have yet to see verifiable, replicable experiments published.  

Interesting topic. 

 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

For sure, horrible experiments were done, and may still be.   

That is different from the ability, with a high probability of success, of programming someone to commit a specific act several months down the road. 

I think some researchers are on to something when they say Sirhan appeared very hypnotizable. On the other hand, it could just be a con's con.  A sample of one is not proof of anything. Dr. Brown's supreme confidence has a bit of the snake oil in it. 

Perhaps there are subsets of the population, perhaps very small subsets, who can become human torpedoes. But maybe not. 

Did the programmers of Sirhan just luck into Sirhan?  "Let's program this guy to shoot t RFK"? Seems like a long, long shot. 

I have yet to see verifiable, replicable experiments published.  

Interesting topic. 

 

Ben,

    You made these same erroneous comments about the clinical observations of "Manchurian candidate" phenomenology by Estabrooks and Brown on the George Estabrooks thread here earlier this year.

    It's obvious that you never studied, or understood, the significance of those references.

    In his 1943 Hypnosis textbook, Estabrooks actually described a successful case of hypnotically programming a subject to shoot someone with a gun (not knowing that the gun was loaded with blanks.)

    There was also a famous case in Europe of a hypnotized subject committing a murder, as a result of post-hypnotic suggestion.

    Closer to home, Dr. Daniel Brown uncovered definitive evidence that Sirhan was hypnotically programmed to fire a gun at RFK.

Edited September 16, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, W. Niederhut said:

Ben,

    You made these same erroneous comments about the clinical observations of "Manchurian candidate" phenomenology by Estabrooks and Brown on the George Estabrooks thread here earlier this year.

    It's obvious that you never studied, or understood, the significance of those references.

    In his 1943 Hypnosis textbook, Estabrooks actually described a successful case of hypnotically programming a subject to shoot someone with a gun (not knowing that the gun was loaded with blanks.)

    There was also a famous case in Europe of a hypnotized subject committing a murder, as a result of post-hypnotic suggestion.

    Closer to home, Dr. Daniel Brown uncovered definitive evidence that Sirhan was hypnotically programmed to fire a gun at RFK.

W-

I am open to the possibility that Sirhan was induced through hypnosis, possibly assisted last minute at the scene by alcohol, drugs and a sexy woman, to shoot at RFK. The supremely self-confident Dr. Brown thinks so (about the hypnosis). 

I am also open to the possibility Sirhan just ran a con on Brown, who is a self-promoter, and who wants to broadly promote the topic of hypnosis. 

Maybe Sirhan had political reasons to shoot at RFK, and did so, although maneuvered into place by others. Sirhan then feigned a total lack of knowledge about anything, and duped researchers pursuing the hypnosis story. 

(Who knows--perhaps Sirhan was hired to do the job, and was told, "If you ever squeal, your family, and extended family, will be murdered. So Sirhan says he does not remember anything, and accommodates various teams of doctor who examine him.) 

A few rare cases in the literature, such as Sirhan, of someone possibly being programmed to commit an assassination or murder, is hardly proof that Manchurian candidates are a viable option. 

As I said, do we even have any idea of what fraction of the population can be induced into being Manchurian candidates? No. It could be 20% or 2% or 0.2%, or 0.02%.  

Is failure the usual result of Manchurian candidate programming? We don't even know that.  

I conclude from the peer-reviewed autopsy of RFK that he was shot from behind and at close range.  Most eyewitnesses place Sirhan several feet away from the front of RFK, and even a couple yards, at a minimum. There was an effort to boot the apparently objective honest LA County Coroner Thomas Noguchi off the case. Photos of the melee around the RFK assassination have disappeared.  The many sightings of the polka-dot dress girl have been denied by authorities. 

I surmise there was a conspiracy to murder RFK, based largely on the autopsy, with lots of circumstantial evidence too. 

Was Sirhan programmed? That may be possible, but possibly being possible does not make it a fact.  

 

 

 

 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[W. Niederhut]

Ben,

   People have to understand dissociative phenomenology to appreciate how Dr. Daniel Brown cracked the Sirhan case.  His evidence is impressive and, in my opinion, conclusive.

   The reason it's important is that Brown was able to confirm that Estabrook's claims about hypnotically programming a suitable subject to shoot someone were actualized in the RFK assassination.

   Have you ever evaluated people with dissociative disorders, or studied the subject in any depth?

[Jamey Flanagan]

These MK Ultra assassins aren't just people who are easily hypnotized. That might be just a small part of the equation. There's a certain way they do these things. These people are traumatized and broken down to the point where they create alters or other personalities because they cannot deal with the emotional and physical pain. They disassociate. It's almost like how a business might compartmentalize and delegate authority on down the chain of command. They can't handle the trauma so another personality takes that on. 

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Jamey Flanagan said:

These MK Ultra assassins aren't just people who are easily hypnotized. That might be just a small part of the equation. There's a certain way they do these things. These people are traumatized and broken down to the point where they create alters or other personalities because they cannot deal with the emotional and physical pain. They disassociate. It's almost like how a business might compartmentalize and delegate authority on down the chain of command. They can't handle the trauma so another personality takes that on. 

Jamey,

    The adults with severe dissociative disorders (including MPD--i.e., Multiple Personality Disorder) whom I encountered during my psychiatric career had all experienced major pshchological trauma in childhood, as did Sirhan.  Traumatized adults (e.g., war veterans) may experience pshchogenic amnesia for traumatic events, but they don't typically develop more extreme dissociative disorders like fugue states and MPD.

   (I worked at a private psychiatric hospital here in Denver in the late 1980s that had an entire ward dedicated to the treatment of adults with MPD.)

    Children all have a capacity for dissociation, but it becomes more pronounced if they are traumatized.

    Dissociative phenomena range from basic psychogenic amnesia to fugue states and MPD.

    My hunch is that Sirhan had a fairly serious dissociative disorder long before the CIA started working on him, (after he allegedly fell off of the horse, etc.)

     

Edited September 16, 2022 by W. Niederhut

[Ron Bulman]

Read this in Psych class in 1974 or 75.  It kind of blew my mind at 18 to learn people could have multiple personalities.  The movie starring Sally Field was pretty good too.

Sybil: The Classic True Story of a Woman Possessed by Sixteen Separate Personalities: Schreiber, Flora Rheta: 8601404389283: Amazon.com: Books

[Jamey Flanagan]

YES! @Ron Bulman the movie Sybil was on one time on a UHF station that played pretty good movies sometimes when I was maybe eleven or twelve and that movie blew my mind! I'm not sure I was even aware of the ability of someone to have multiple personalities at that point in my life. What an introduction! 😂😂😂 And to hear of the kind of abuse that she sustained at the hands of her own mother......I probably had no clue at that age that there were monsters like that in our world! I really do believe that many of our movie stars and rock stars and other celebrities have undergone some conditioning (to use a kinder gentler word, lol).

[W. Niederhut]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

Read this in Psych class in 1974 or 75.  It kind of blew my mind at 18 to learn people could have multiple personalities.  The movie starring Sally Field was pretty good too.

Sybil: The Classic True Story of a Woman Possessed by Sixteen Separate Personalities: Schreiber, Flora Rheta: 8601404389283: Amazon.com: Books

Ron,

     I attended a lecture by Flora Rheta Schreiber during my (?) freshman year at Brown.  Her famous book, Sybil, played a major role in raising public awareness of MPD.

     Dissociative disorders are real, but people need to observe them to understand that reality.  We all have alter personalities, (a 5 year old self, a 12 year old, 18 year old, etc.) but those of us who have had relatively trauma-free childhoods have merged our alter personalities into an integrated, co-conscious sense of self over time.   We remember who we are and what we have done from moment to moment and day to day in an integrated life narrative.  (Not counting alcoholic black outs, of course.)

     Dissociative people don't.  They may do things in one ego state-- driving somewhere, buying things, etc.-- for which they have no memory in another ego state.

     As I once heard Dr. Martin Orne say, (in a lecture here at our Colorado State Hospital in 1987) "The sine qua non of dissociation is amnesia."

     That's why Sirhan's amnesia for the Ambassador Hotel shooting doesn't necessarily seem far-fetched to me-- especially if his amnesia was induced by a post-hypnotic suggestion.

     Susceptible people do strange things as a result of post-hypnotic suggestions, and they can also be programmed to have total amnesia for the suggestion itself.

     George Estabrooks' 1943 Hypnosis textbook has numerous examples of this phenomenon.  It's a fascinating read.

     (I also wonder if the U.S. military, and/or CIA didn't want the public to know about Estabrooks' work-- especially the "Manchurian candidate" part.)

Hypnotism by George Hoben Estabrooks - 5 | PDF | Hypnosis | E Books (scribd.com)

Edited September 16, 2022 by W. Niederhut