Ruth Paine on "The Assassination & Mrs. Paine" film: "Well done, but powerfully awful"

[Matt Allison]

13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

You're supposed to show flaws in my and Denny's argument. Did you read and understand our argument?

I thought I read it and didn't see anything other than an accusation that they're lying.

If that isn't correct, please provide a straightforward, succinct synopsis and I'll read it and answer.

[Sandy Larsen]

Here's our argument in a nutshell:

Premise: The plotters chose Oswald to be the patsy for the assassination.

Argument:

1. The plotters planned to used Dealey Plaza for the assassination, and the TSBD specifically for at least some of the shots.
2. It took the plotters some time and preparation to be ready for the Big Event.
3. The plotters chose to place the patsy, Oswald, at the TSBD. How do we know that? Because that is where he was on the day of the Big Event. He certainly didn't get there by accident.
4. Therefore, the plotters were in control of Oswald getting the job at the TSBD.

 

Matt, where is the flaw in our argument?

 

[Matt Allison]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Matt, where is the flaw in our argument?

Your argument is that Linnie Mae Randle was a plotter, or a xxxx, or had her testimony altered.

There's no evidence for any of that. Zero.

You're forced to say that about her because you started with a conclusion, instead of starting with actual evidence.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Matt, where is the flaw in our argument?

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

Your argument is that Linnie Mae Randle was a plotter, or a xxxx, or had her testimony altered.

There's no evidence for any of that. Zero.

You're forced to say that about her because you started with a conclusion, instead of starting with actual evidence.

 

I didn't say a word about Linnie Mae in my argument.

You seriously cannot see a flaw in my argument, can you?

 

[Matt Allison]

20 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

1. Therefore, the plotters were in control of Oswald getting the job at the TSBD.

 

So Linnie Mae Randle was a plotter?

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I didn't say a word about Linnie Mae in my argument.

As shown above, you did, because you're saying whoever got Oswald the job at TSBD also plotted the assassination.

Linnie Mae Randle is why Oswald got the TSBD job.

He only knew about the job because Linnie Mae Randle mentioned the TSBD at a morning coffee gathering.

There is nothing you can do to escape that fact.

And you should ask yourself why you are trying so hard to escape that fact.

[Sandy Larsen]

43 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

4. Therefore, the plotters were in control of Oswald getting the job at the TSBD.

43 minutes ago, Matt Allison said:

So Linnie Mae Randle was a plotter? ... you're saying whoever got Oswald the job at TSBD also plotted the assassination.

 

No, I'm saying that the plotters were controlling whoever got Oswald to take a job at the TSBD. The plotters needed to make sure that Oswald got a job there so that he would be there to take his (unwitting) role as patsy.

If Linnie May and Ruth were not under control of the plotters, then how is it that Oswald just happened to get a job where the plotters needed hm to be? By sheer coincidence?

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

19 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

No, I'm saying that the plotters were controlling whoever got Oswald to take a job at the TSBD. The plotters needed to make sure that Oswald got a job there so that he would be there to take his (unwitting) role as patsy.

If Linnie May and Ruth were not under control of the plotters, then how is it that Oswald just happened to get a job where the plotters needed hm to be? By sheer coincidence?

Yes, by sheer coincidence! Good lord -- why is this so hard to understand? Are you trying to claim that the "plotters" knew they'd specifically be utilizing the Texas School Book Depository to assassinate JFK weeks before the general public ever knew he was coming to Dallas, much less the motorcade route being announced?

Oswald was already working in the building. Why do you seem incapable of considering the possibility that the TSBD was only chosen to be utilized after Oswald's arrival there? 

[Sandy Larsen]

33 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Oswald was already working in the building. Why do you seem incapable of considering the possibility that the TSBD was only chosen to be utilized after Oswald's arrival there?

 

It's a ridiculous notion that the plotters would leave up to chance where they would prepare and execute an assassination and escape plan. They probably had been planning for months. As others have pointed out, the TSBD moved into that building earlier that year. It was probably a CIA front and safe house.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

54 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

It's a ridiculous notion that the plotters would leave up to chance where they would prepare and execute an assassination and escape plan. They probably had been planning for months. As others have pointed out, the TSBD moved into that building earlier that year. It was probably a CIA front and safe house.

It was “probably” this… it was “maybe” that. As usual, Sandy Larsen has no actual evidence to support his mountain of what-ifs.

[Matt Allison]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

No, I'm saying that the plotters were controlling whoever got Oswald to take a job at the TSBD.

 

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

If Linnie May and Ruth were not under control of the plotters

So you're saying Linnie Mae Randle was under control of the plotters.

Which is ridiculous.

You form a conclusion about the JFKA, and then have to conjure up an absurd scenario to support it.

Once again, as I was saying before my posts were censored,  nonsense like this makes serious JFKA research look bad, and attracts loony cult types. 

[Michael Griffith]

Something that caught my eye about Ruth Paine was that she studied Russian at Middlebury College in Vermont. Many government agencies send people to Middlebury for language training, and Middlebury is not cheap. 

When I was in the military, I was slated to attend a Hebrew course at Middlebury, but then I came down on orders for a PCS move (permanent change of station move), and so I was not able to attend the course. Military linguists view Middlebury as the best language school they can attend.

[Guest]

I made some notes on Ruth's Russian studies (I was trying to stay on track)

1957 :  summer course at the University of Pennsylvania  (6 weeks)

1958 :  a course at the Berlitz School in Philadelphia 

1959 :  summer course at the Middlebury College (7 weeks)    

1960 :  a course at the Berlitz School in Dallas + private lessons with Mrs. Gravitis (and during 1961/1962 ?)

----------

1963 :  teacher of Russian, summer, Saint Marks School of Texas in Dallas (1 student : Bill Hootkins)

-----------

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Sandy Larsen]

On 10/24/2022 at 5:19 PM, Matt Allison said:

 

So you're saying Linnie Mae Randle was under control of the plotters.

Which is ridiculous.

You form a conclusion about the JFKA, and then have to conjure up an absurd scenario to support it.

Once again, as I was saying before my posts were censored,  nonsense like this makes serious JFKA research look bad, and attracts loony cult types. 

 

Matt,

Please answer the question I pose in this thread:
 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

On 10/24/2022 at 5:19 PM, Matt Allison said:

On 10/24/2022 at 2:12 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

No, I'm saying that the plotters were controlling whoever got Oswald to take a job at the TSBD.

On 10/24/2022 at 5:19 PM, Matt Allison said:

On 10/24/2022 at 2:12 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

If Linnie May and Ruth were not under control of the plotters

 

On 10/24/2022 at 5:19 PM, Matt Allison said:

So you're saying Linnie Mae Randle was under control of the plotters.

Which is ridiculous.

 

I didn't say that, you did. Linnie Mae my have lied for all we know. Or her testimony my have been altered.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 5:19 PM, Matt Allison said:

You form a conclusion about the JFKA, and then have to conjure up an absurd scenario to support it.

 

So, you disagree that the plotters preordained Oswald to be the patsy? That is what the evidence shows.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 5:19 PM, Matt Allison said:

Once again, as I was saying before my posts were censored,  nonsense like this makes serious JFKA research look bad, and attracts loony cult types.

 

Nonsense? What nonsense?

The evidence shows that the CIA set up Oswald as conspiring with the Cubans and Russians to kill Kennedy. It was a false flag operation designed to create a pretext for Cuban invasion. And it was designed to make Oswald look like he was directly involved in the shooting.

The evidence for this is undeniable.

Somehow Oswald just happened to get a job where he needed to be... at the TSBD. The only "great leap" that I take -- what you call nonsense -- is to say that the odds against Oswald getting that job by coincidence are so great that it cannot have happened that way.

What is nonsense is for you to say otherwise.

 

[Greg Doudna]

On 10/24/2022 at 5:20 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't know the details on how Oswald got the job. But anybody who claims they helped Oswald get the job either did so for the CIA or is lying. Because the only other alternative is that Oswald miraculously chose the right place to get a job, and I don't believe in miracles.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 10:04 AM, Denny Zartman said:

In my view, if one believes (as I do) that Oswald was the designated patsy in an organized and sophisticated conspiracy, it seems to me only logical to examine the circumstances that put him on the motorcade route.

The conspirators needed to place him in that building. Either they waited until they got lucky and he just happened to get a job there, or they engineered it to happen. I don't think they waited for it to happen and I don't think he was selected to be the patsy after he began work at the TSBD, which just happened to be a month and a week before the assassination. It's well known that Oswald's history had so-called "fingerprints of intelligence" all over it.

So how did LHO get to the TSBD? Ruth Paine cold-called Roy Truly.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 11:49 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

Here's our argument in a nutshell:

Premise: The plotters chose Oswald to be the patsy for the assassination.

Argument:

1. The plotters planned to used Dealey Plaza for the assassination, and the TSBD specifically for at least some of the shots.
2. It took the plotters some time and preparation to be ready for the Big Event.
3. The plotters chose to place the patsy, Oswald, at the TSBD. How do we know that? Because that is where he was on the day of the Big Event. He certainly didn't get there by accident.
4. Therefore, the plotters were in control of Oswald getting the job at the TSBD.

Matt, where is the flaw in our argument?

 

On 10/24/2022 at 12:08 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

You seriously cannot see a flaw in my argument, can you?

 

On 10/24/2022 at 1:12 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

No, I'm saying that the plotters were controlling whoever got Oswald to take a job at the TSBD. The plotters needed to make sure that Oswald got a job there so that he would be there to take his (unwitting) role as patsy.

If Linnie May and Ruth were not under control of the plotters, then how is it that Oswald just happened to get a job where the plotters needed hm to be? By sheer coincidence?

 

On 10/24/2022 at 2:18 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

It's a ridiculous notion that the plotters would leave up to chance where they would prepare and execute an assassination and escape plan. They probably had been planning for months. 

The flaw in this logic

First a disclaimer: I believe the assassination was a criminal conspiracy and that there was a framing of Castro and Oswald by those carrying out the assassination by means of having a rifle linked to Oswald linked to the assassination, put together with Oswald's communist associations and activity. But I do not believe Oswald's employment in the TSBD was foreordained. However you do assume this. I am going to show your logic collapses taking your assumptions.

Very simply, if TSBD employment by Oswald was foreordained as a necessary part of the plot, you must have the following participants under control of the plotters, in order to ensure that it will happen as planned:

• Above all, Truly at TSBD has to be instructed and ensured that he hire Oswald. That cannot be left to chance. No cold-call phone call from a woman in Irving, no matter how persuasive over the phone, is going to be enough to ensure that a Truly who is not involved with the plotters will hire instead of blowing off the phone call. ("I'm sorry ma'am, we have nothing now--he can drop off an application if he likes and we'll keep it on file in case our needs change in the future and give it every consideration at that time, but we just have nothing at present.") So, you've got to have Truly lined up in advance by the plotters. No ifs, ands, or buts about this, in terms of your scenario. (I believe in an earlier discussion you did agree to this so I do not anticipate you disputing this.)
• And, you must have Oswald instructed to take the job, by the plotters. That cannot be left to chance. If left to chance, Oswald might find a different job. Or he might decline to take the TSBD job for some unexpected reason. All the months of work of who knows how many handlers and coordinated plotters would be for nothing. Oswald has to be on board with the plotters in advance on this, of taking the TSBD job. No ifs, ands, or buts about this, in terms of your scenario.
• And, the plotters must have a plan to ensure that Oswald not be hired at any of the places he applied for prior to the TSBD. I won't list them here but there were several job applications and interviews done by Oswald where he was turned down for a job despite making an effort to be hired. The plotters cannot allow a hiring of Oswald other than at the TSBD. If follows (following your premises and logic) that each of the hiring decision-makers, in each of the businesses where Oswald applied, has to be under the control of the plotters--in order to know they are not to offer Oswald a job. The plotters must also control the placement counselor at the Texas Employment Commission who gave two job interview leads to Oswald to which Oswald went, in order to direct Oswald to the right places where the plotters have instructed those employers not to hire Oswald. 

With these three items established as necessary to ensure Oswald is hired at the TSBD, here is the logical fallacy: If both Truly and Oswald are on board with the plotters--as it has just been established they both must be--all that is needed is for Oswald to show up and Truly says "you're hired". Once this realization sinks in and is properly appreciated, there is no longer any need or necessary function or role for any persuasive phone call from Ruth Paine. It is irrelevant. It is unnecessary to the plot. Truly does not need to be persuaded by a cold-call from a housewife in Irving to hire a stranger (which cannot ensure that outcome in any case). Truly is going to hire Oswald who is going to take the job offered at TSBD, in the scenario, because that already is lined up on both of their parts. Ruth Paine's phone call becomes superfluous. Therefore there is no reason her phone call to Truly must have entered into the plotters' advance planning at all, since it plays no necessary role in anything, it cannot be guaranteed to accomplish anything, it is not needed to accomplish anything. Therefore Ruth's phone call to Truly will not have been preplanned by the plotters. It will have come about for a different, unrelated reason: she did that just as when she gave Lee a map, drove him to a written drivers license test location, taught him to parallel park, made him a birthday cake, etc.--on her own. Therefore, your argument that Ruth Paine is CIA because she made a phone call to Truly collapses because it rests on nothing logically.

Your premise, if true, requires Truly, Oswald, and the hiring decision-makers at places where Oswald applied for work prior to the TSBD, were under control of the plotters. Those are necessary to the plot for it to work, to ensure Oswald is employed at TSBD.

Ruth Paine making a cold-call phone call to Truly is not necessary for the plot to work. Not being necessary to the plot, there is no reason to suppose it would have been planned by the plotters at all. To assume otherwise is a logical fallacy.