The Killing Floor

[Pat Speer]

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Good question.  Especially if Shelly is just coming in the west entrance after perusing the railroad yards.

 

5 hours ago, Tony Krome said:

And Dougherty? How is he left guarding the passenger elevator by Shelley if he's on the 5th floor?

He's not. While it's impossible to work it all out, it appears that Dougherty was confused in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Perhaps then he didn't understand what Shelley told him and just went back to work. No one said they saw him by the elevator, and the only contact with the police (or FBI) Dougherty would cop to was a good deal later--when he went up to the sixth floor looking for Truly. Assuming Dougherty went back to work, then, we can assume he got up to the sixth floor at 12:35 or so. He then went down to the fifth at say 12:37. At such time he heard a loud sound above him that was actually Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. I believe they said they saw Sawyer as they came down--and I think Sawyer ran back outside at 12:37 or so...

But that's me just going off the top of my head... 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

Wait...did one of the women descending the stairs in the TSBD in the immediate post-JFKA say they say the elevator cable or cabs were moving? 

If that is an accurate observation, then she was descending the stairs possibly two minutes after gunfire.

No? 

[Paul Jolliffe]

20 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Isn't there is a photo that shows someone who greatly resembles Shelley with Oswald handing out his leaflets in front of the International Trade Mart? Could someone post that photo?

[Paul Jolliffe]

Just now, Paul Jolliffe said:

It is impossible to say for certain whether this man in New Orleans is William Hoyt Shelley of TSBD fame, but either way, it is beyond doubt that our man "Oswald" was in the immediate presence in two different cities (Dallas and New Orleans) of a man who greatly resembled Shelley. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

7 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

 

He's not. While it's impossible to work it all out, it appears that Dougherty was confused in the immediate aftermath of the shooting. Perhaps then he didn't understand what Shelley told him and just went back to work. No one said they saw him by the elevator, and the only contact with the police (or FBI) Dougherty would cop to was a good deal later--when he went up to the sixth floor looking for Truly. Assuming Dougherty went back to work, then, we can assume he got up to the sixth floor at 12:35 or so. He then went down to the fifth at say 12:37. At such time he heard a loud sound above him that was actually Baker and Truly coming down from the roof. I believe they said they saw Sawyer as they came down--and I think Sawyer ran back outside at 12:37 or so...

But that's me just going off the top of my head... 

 

Pat,

I tend to agree with your theory that the west freight elevator was very possibly an escape route for at least one of the upper floor conspirators. I agree that if Jack Dougherty was actually on the first floor in the bathroom at the time of the assassination, then he must have ridden an elevator up to the fifth floor in order to be seen by Truly later. If so, then as I pointed out before, Dougherty almost certainly came face-to-face with at least one escaping conspirator when the elevator opened on the first floor. 

For you and everyone else here, is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were actually locked in place on the fifth floor, other than Roy Truly's say-so?

Truly looked up the elevator shaft and claimed to see that both elevators were on the SAME floor. Is it possible that he was mistaken (or something else) and that the west freight elevator was actually locked on the sixth floor? 

Is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were on the fifth floor at the same time before the assassination? If not, then how did an escaping assassin get on the fifth floor elevator without being seen or heard by Junior Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman? If those three really ran down the stairs before an escaping assassin arrived on the fifth floor, then how did Jarman, Williams and Norman elude Truly and Baker? 

I suspect Jarman, Williams and Norman did not immediately leave the fifth floor, but instead lingered for a little bit. 

So how did they miss an assassin using the west freight elevator, if that elevator really was on the fifth floor the whole time? 

Somebody took the elevator down. But from which floor?

By the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, that west freight elevator wasn't there. 

Beyond Truly's statement, how do we know it was really on the fifth floor to begin with?

(Was it actually on the sixth floor the whole time, locked in place until needed for the sixth floor assassins?)

[Paul Brancato]

In all this discussion about the TSBD and possible assassin(s) therein, do any of the posters believe that the shot that Killed JFK came from that location? 

[Paul Jolliffe]

16 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Baker said he wasn't sure if the shots came from the building. He just knew he could get a good look from the roof. Truly said he thought the shots came from the railroad yards. He thought the elevators at the back of the building were locked up on the fifth, and told Shelley to go make sure no one suspicious came out the elevator at the front of the building from where he would have to have assumed the shots were fired, if indeed they were fired from the building. He also tells Piper to guard the back door. He runs with Baker up to the second floor. Baker stops to get a look at Oswald. Truly gives Oswald the OK. They then proceed up to the fifth, take the elevator to the seventh, and go up on the roof. At this point neither of them have reason to suspect Oswald. As Truly comes down moreover he sees Dougherty working and assumes it was Dougherty who rode the elevator down as they ran up. Soon thereafter the Dallas police officers and county sheriffs, who had almost universally raced to the train yards, race into the building, searching for the shooter they assume is hiding in the building. Serious attention is paid to the seventh floor, which is dark and has a small room in the corner. They send out for lights. After 20 minutes or so of this chaos, Mooney finds the sniper's nest on the sixth floor and another 10 minutes or so pass before Fritz comes up and begins the search for the rifle. Boone finds it 10 minutes later. It would only now dawn on Truly that Oswald may have been the shooter. Either he goes looking for him, or is told Oswald is missing, and this alarms him to the extent he tells Fritz. It is more than an hour after the shooting.

 

Pat, 

In Truly's own words (under oath) he swore that he both noticed and acted on "Oswald's" absence within "moments or minutes" after arriving back on the first floor with Baker. Truly did this even though he did not know where all of "his boys" were at that moment. Some were missing, and he knew that, but he was concerned with and acted only because of "Oswald."

Truly did not wait an hour - he was determined to act within "moments or minutes". And since he estimated that he and Baker had arrived back on the first floor withing five to ten minutes of their ascent, then it follows that Truly had "noticed" "Oswald's" absence by 12:40 or so. 

Long before Fritz was notified.

Even before Inspector Sawyer's infamous 12:45 suspect description call to the DPD dispatchers. 

As early as 12:40, according to his own testimony, Roy Truly was concerned only with "Oswald."

Why?

Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not." Because I had another one or two out then. I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.

[Paul Jolliffe]

11 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

In all this discussion about the TSBD and possible assassin(s) therein, do any of the posters believe that the shot that Killed JFK came from that location? 

Paul,

It seems highly probable that a sniper team was in the sixth floor SE corner window of the TSBD. Were any shots actually fired from that location? I don't know - it is possible, I suppose. A rifle was found later on the sixth floor, but whether it was really the notorious MC Italian rifle is another question. 

Many researchers have long mused that the sixth floor team was meant to pose (hang out a window) with a rifle before, during and briefly after the assassination. Given their obvious visibility to witnesses on the ground before the shooting, that scenario seems pretty likely.

In any event, the medical and photographic evidence seems to indicate strongly that at least one shot struck the president in the head from the front. 

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Thank you Paul.

My goodness, the man in the Oswald New Orleans leaflet passing photo looks JUST LIKE the TXSBD Shelley!

[Joe Bauer]

Who described Dougherty as "retarded?"

And why?

[Pat Speer]

33 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Pat,

I tend to agree with your theory that the west freight elevator was very possibly an escape route for at least one of the upper floor conspirators. I agree that if Jack Dougherty was actually on the first floor in the bathroom at the time of the assassination, then he must have ridden an elevator up to the fifth floor in order to be seen by Truly later. If so, then as I pointed out before, Dougherty almost certainly came face-to-face with at least one escaping conspirator when the elevator opened on the first floor. 

For you and everyone else here, is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were actually locked in place on the fifth floor, other than Roy Truly's say-so?

Truly looked up the elevator shaft and claimed to see that both elevators were on the SAME floor. Is it possible that he was mistaken (or something else) and that the west freight elevator was actually locked on the sixth floor? 

Is there any evidence that BOTH of the freight elevators were on the fifth floor at the same time before the assassination? If not, then how did an escaping assassin get on the fifth floor elevator without being seen or heard by Junior Jarman, Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman? If those three really ran down the stairs before an escaping assassin arrived on the fifth floor, then how did Jarman, Williams and Norman elude Truly and Baker? 

I suspect Jarman, Williams and Norman did not immediately leave the fifth floor, but instead lingered for a little bit. 

So how did they miss an assassin using the west freight elevator, if that elevator really was on the fifth floor the whole time? 

Somebody took the elevator down. But from which floor?

By the time Truly and Baker reached the fifth floor, that west freight elevator wasn't there. 

Beyond Truly's statement, how do we know it was really on the fifth floor to begin with?

(Was it actually on the sixth floor the whole time, locked in place until needed for the sixth floor assassins?)

Jarman and Norman took the west elevator up to the fifth 20 minutes or so before the shooting. I believe they were non-committal as to whether they left the gate up. But when they got there the east elevator was supposedly up on the sixth. So it seems possible Jarman and Norman left the gate up so they would be guaranteed access for their trip back down. I mean. most people used the front elevator. As far as they knew they were the only ones on the upper floors. So it only makes sense that they would not bring down the gate and lock the elevator on their floor. 

But we don't know any of this stuff because the DPD and FBI etc either failed to comprehend the importance of the elevator or refused to actually investigate this issue. I don't think there's any memo or report prior to March or April in which the elevator situation was even discussed. The supposed story is that Williams took the east up to the sixth, and then the fifth, where it was locked in place. And that Jarman and Norman took the west up to the fifth but didn't lock it in place. They need this to be so they can explain how Dougherty got back upstairs to go back to work. So he takes it up to the sixth and then the fifth...where he supposedly is at the time of the shooting. But here's one of the massive HOLES in the official story. They then have him standing by the elevator on the fifth for two minutes or so after the shots, when his words suggest he came down n a matter of seconds after hearing the loud sound above him. And this two minutes or so is lethal to the official story, IMO. The west elevator is like 25 feet from the stairwell Oswald supposedly came down on--the stairwell that opens up into the room. IOW, the official story has Oswald run right past Dougherty. So why was Dougherty never asked if he saw or heard Oswald run past him? When I put this together I realized that the whole Dougherty on the fifth floor at the time of the shots story was a concoction and not a conclusion. The relevant questions before one could come to such a conclusion were just never asked. 

P.S. As the last known movement of the west elevator prior to the shooting was 20 minutes or so before the shooting by Jarman and Norman, it remains possible someone called or took this elevator up to the sixth in that period. As I recall Williams was not asked if he saw this elevator when he took the east elevator down. As far as Truly, I don't put much stock in his claim both elevators were on the same floor. I doubt someone standing on the first floor could quickly glimpse two elevators from below and determine for sure if they were both four floors up, or if one was five floors up. But even if he's correct, it just means that the shooter--after tossing the assassination rifle near the stairwell--ran down the stairs to the fifth, and then took the open west elevator on down. 

[Tony Krome]

8 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

Perhaps then he didn't understand what Shelley told him and just went back to work.

Shelley stated that he was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. He then stated he accompanied police up the elevator, and implies that because of that, he leaves Dougherty in charge of the elevator. (you are saying passenger elevator)

Are you now saying that Shelley issued instructions to Dougherty at the freight elevator area, before Shelley moved to the passenger elevator?

[Pat Speer]

13 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Who described Dougherty as "retarded?"

And why?

If I recall, Truly was asked about Dougherty's inconsistencies, and tried to cut off suspicion of him by telling the FBI Dougherty was kinda retarded, or some such thing. Dougherty was the only one believed to have been on the upper floors without an alibi. He was considered suspicious. Truly was trying to help.

I am fairly certain, moreover, that Dougherty was not retarded. Frazier told me he read the paper every day. The tape of his  conversation with Gil Toff reveals him to be quite normal. So only mildly retarded, if that. But I suspect otherwise. I suspect he was instead autistic--someone addicted to routine, who works better by himself, and has trouble communicating. 

[Paul Jolliffe]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Who described Dougherty as "retarded?"

And why?

"Retarded" is not the way Truly put it. But clearly Truly wanted to convey that all was not quite right with Dougherty.

Why?

Well, if (IF) Dougherty really did come face-to-face with an escaping assassin on the first floor when the west freight elevator opened (before Dougherty went back upstairs), then Dougherty's credibility would need massaging. 

Especially since Dougherty told Ball in his WC testimony that Shelley told Dougherty that Shelley had seen "Oswald" that morning with a large package in his hands. Of course, no one ever saw "Oswald" with a large package - Shelley lied to Dougherty. 

And the kicker is that when Ball questioned Shelley later, Ball DID NOT ASK SHELLEY ONE THING ABOUT THAT SHELLEY'S LIE TO DOUGHERTY!

So Joe, tell me: why did Shelley lie to Dougherty and why didn't Ball dare ask about that lie?

Here is Roy Truly's sworn description about Dougherty:

Mr. BELIN. Could you tell us a little bit about Jack Dougherty?
Mr. TRULY. Jack Dougherty has been working for us 12 or 14 years. Until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our State Department, the building at 1917 North Houston. He would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in Texas. And he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. The main thing is he just worked all the time.
I have never had any occasion to have any hard words for Jack. A few times he would get a little bit---maybe do a little something wrong, and I would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [Deletion.] He is a great big husky fellow. I think he is 39 years old. He has never been married. He has no interest in women. He gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. He has never had any trouble. He is a good, loyal, hardworking employee. He always has been.
Mr. BELIN. Would you _consider him of average intelligence?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir. I think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. I would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence.

Here is Dougherty's own testimony to the Warren Commission. Note how disjointed and confused Dougherty is about even the simplest things. It's worth reading in full:

History Matters Archive - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume VI, pg (history-matters.com)

 

[Tony Krome]

4 minutes ago, Paul Jolliffe said:

Shelley lied to Dougherty. 

On a Saturday?