The Killing Floor

[Matt Allison]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, but I mean how did the two perps---even if not LHO---descend the stairs unseen and then out to the street?

 

I don't know about there being 2 people, but as mentioned before, it was suggested that abseiling down the elevator shaft was used, as the elevator itself was purposely disabled.

[Sean Coleman]

57 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

The question would then become: How did these two guys---dressed like cops!---get into the building and up to the sixth floor prior to the assassination without a single person noticing either one of these "cops"?

And remember: the sixth floor was well-populated that day, with extra workers up there laying the new floor (up until about 11:45 AM, that is).

 

They were plainclothes, just two guys….

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Sean Coleman said:

They were plainclothes, just two guys….

But the same question I asked previously still applies. Especially when considering the repeated "I saw no strangers in the TSBD on Nov. 22" statements that exist within Commission Document No. 706 (aka CE1381)....

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Matt Allison said:

I don't know about there being 2 people, but as mentioned before, it was suggested that abseiling down the elevator shaft was used, as the elevator itself was purposely disabled.

Well, now I am totally confused (I mean, more than usual).  

OK, the elevator was working and it was not working. 

Someone took the elevator down from the sixth floor, but they did not stop on the second floor before stopping on the first floor. For sure. The power was off (no one has ever explained that) but then it was on. 

The perps could have come down on the one working elevator, or rappelled down the shaft.  Could they exit the shaft after rappelling without attracting attention? Where are the ropes they used? 

LHO, who we know was a CIA asset and who worked in the TSBD, and it very likely was the CIA or elements that did the JFKA---but LHO was in no way involved.  

Oh, and LHO, totally uninvolved, then immediately goes home and gets a revolver.  You know, because you always need a revolver to watch the movies with. 

Then, through a fog of confused witnesses, phonied up affidavits, fading memories, try to divine exactly how people moved around in the TSBD on 11/22. 

Add on: LHO was a photographer (he put that on his resume), and had a deep interest in politics and history, and was a JFK fan. 

If you wanted set up LHO as the loner-patsy-gunman, you had to make sure LHO was not on the street taking pictures of JFK as passed by--where LHO could be expected to be. 

At a minimum, that meant sequestering LHO.  And LHO would wonder why he is being summoned in his lunch hour to some back room while JFK passes by...no? 

One question: If you stand on the first floor, does the TSBD elevator indicator tell you where the elevators are? That is, if you are on the first floor, can you tell there is one elevator on the second floor and another on the sixth floor? 

[Sean Coleman]

58 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

But the same question I asked previously still applies. Especially when considering the repeated "I saw no strangers in the TSBD on Nov. 22" statements that exist within Commission Document No. 706 (aka CE1381)....

 

Thought we were talking about Mooney not Adams

[Guest]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

But the same question I asked previously still applies. Especially when considering the repeated "I saw no strangers in the TSBD on Nov. 22" statements that exist within Commission Document No. 706 (aka CE1381)....

 

None of them (in the link you provide) observed LHO leaving the building at that time, so that didn't happen either....  same logic... doesn't work

[Dave Chrisman]

3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

The question would then become: How did these two guys---dressed like cops!---get into the building and up to the sixth floor prior to the assassination without a single person noticing either one of these "cops"?

And remember: the sixth floor was well-populated that day, with extra workers up there laying the new floor (up until about 11:45 AM, that is).

 

Well, under the premise they are hired assassins and it was a coup, who says they had to come in during business hours? They could have shown up at 4am and been kept out of sight by an authority figure in TSBD until the proper time. So there are possibilities.

Also, I do agree with you that it would be absurd to parade two guys up to the 6th floor during work hours and not expect anyone to notice. 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

The question would then become: How did these two guys---dressed like cops!---get into the building and up to the sixth floor prior to the assassination without a single person noticing either one of these "cops"?

And remember: the sixth floor was well-populated that day, with extra workers up there laying the new floor (up until about 11:45 AM, that is).

 

No one was watching the back part of the building during the lunch hour. Someone could have just walked in. 

PLUS.. A security service had keys to the building. Someone could have stolen keys from the service and come in during the night. This person could have then spent the morning hiding up on the seventh floor. 

OR perhaps perhaps...a member of this service was a right-wing looney (roughly 50% of Dallas' population at the time) who just helped himself to the keys.

We don't know much about this second possibility... seeing as the WC failed to follow-up on this in any way...

 

[Pat Speer]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Not to belabor a point but...

Suppose the descending LHO got out on the second floor, momentarily stopping the elevators, while Truly and Baker were on the ground-floor looking at the elevators. 

The pair go up the stairs and encounter LHO....

Truly said he looked up the shaft and saw that the elevators were stopped on an upper floor. He thought the fifth. He and Baker then ran up the staircase nearby, where they saw Oswald in a matter of seconds. 

 

[Pat Speer]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

But the same question I asked previously still applies. Especially when considering the repeated "I saw no strangers in the TSBD on Nov. 22" statements that exist within Commission Document No. 706 (aka CE1381)....

 

The question about strangers in the building was smoke, designed to distract. Many of those saying they didn't notice a stranger in the building also said they had never noticed Oswald, in the many weeks he'd worked there. Well, it follows then that there were just too many people working there for too many different companies for most employees to know who did or did not belong there. To make matters worse, of course, was that when they came back into the building after lunch, there were in fact strangers in the building, a lot of them. So those claiming they had not seen any strangers were obviously incorrect, and really saying that they had not noticed anyone they'd considered suspicious. 

[Ron Ege]

7 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't think that works. it took only 15 seconds or so for Baker and Truly to get from the elevators to the second floor staircase, where Baker spotted Oswald. That is an insufficient span of time for Oswald to come down on the elevator and walk quietly over to the break room. 

 

Pat, thanks - you do great work!

Am I understanding that you subscribe to the second-floor lunch encounter between Baker/Truly and Oswald?

Others here have presented evidence, I thought when I read it anyway, that strongly implied that said encounter never happened.   It being just a concocted story to fit predetermined scenario - or a real encounter with a "someone" (never identified)- who was not LHO. 

Frankly, I have no idea whether either one is correct, or even another scenario was possible.  I just value your take, as well as everyone else's here.

All comments welcome.

 

 

 

[Matt Allison]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Well, now I am totally confused (I mean, more than usual).  

 

Well, it's not my theory, so I'm not super clear on the details either.

People posing as law enforcement is far more likely, I imagine.

I wonder at what point the 7th floor got searched that day.

[Guest]

Now... I know nothing about 1960's work-place-ethics in Dallas... so forgive me if I'm way out here...

But Williams leaving/dropping his leftovers (chicken bone, bag, bottle) like he did... ?   

There's something I can not explain, I get that he wanted to join his colleagues, but why would he leave those leftovers like that ?  Unless it was not uncommon to do so (but for now, I find that a little hard to believe), not ?

Was he told to drop it all and get out ? We'll never know I guess...

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Joe Bauer]

24 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Now... I know nothing about 1960's work-place-ethics in Dallas... so forgive me if I'm way out here...

But Williams leaving/dropping his leftovers (chicken bone, bag, bottle) like he did... ?   

There's something I can not explain, I get that he wanted to join his colleagues, but why would he leave those leftovers like that ?  Unless it was not uncommon to do so (but for now, I find that a little hard to believe), not ?

Was he told to drop it all and get out ? We'll never know I guess...

 

You would think an employee would not just drop his garbage on the floor or a box like that for someone else to clean up? If I am a boss and came upon trash just thrown like that I would make every effort to find the employee and reprimand him or her with a stern warning against doing it again.

 

[Mark Knight]

Willaims was part of the crew laying plywood on the flooring on the 6th floor. Leaving his lunch residue on the 6th meant that he expected to deal with it when he returned to work, it would seem to me.

Could Dougherty have been a [the?] 6th floor shooter?