Elevators and Electricity

[David Von Pein]

On 10/29/2022 at 10:18 PM, David Von Pein said:

We can be pretty sure the phones in the Book Depository did not go "dead" right around the time of the assassination, because we have this additional Warren Commission testimony from Miss Geneva Hine, which is testimony at 6 H 396 which certainly implies that the TSBD telephones were working within a very very short time of when the shooting occurred:

"And there was a girl in there [the office of Southwestern Publishing Co.] talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door. .... I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing."

In Addition To The Above Information....

We also know that the telephones inside the Depository were working just a few minutes after the assassination took place, because Robert MacNeil of NBC News used one of the TSBD phones to call the NBC Radio Network and was put on the air live with that network's first bulletin concerning the shooting. MacNeil's initial bulletin can be heard here.

So, if the phones in the Texas School Book Depository went dead right around the time President Kennedy was being shot out on Elm Street, then they certainly didn't remain "dead" for very long at all.

Edited October 31, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

In Addition To The Above Information....

We also know that the telephones inside the Depository were working just a few minutes after the assassination took place, because Robert MacNeil of NBC News used one of the TSBD phones to call the NBC Radio Network and was put on the air live with that network's first bulletin concerning the shooting. MacNeil's initial bulletin can be heard here.

So, if the phones in the Texas School Book Depository went dead right around the time President Kennedy was being shot out on Elm Street, then they certainly didn't remain "dead" for very long at all.

Well, maybe.

On the old days, the public phones, and phones directly tapped into the public phone system (such as those in an ordinary house), had power through the phone company itself. 

The kinds of phones one sees in offices, with switchboards and lights, are dependent on city power (or power within a building) to make the switchboards work. 

If MacNeil used a public pay phone, the power would have been on for his phone call. 

If all the lights on a large switchboard went out simultaneously, one might reasonably suspect an outage of power in the building.

Unfortunately, Geneva Hines' statement, like so much witness testimony in the JFKA, is muddled, and follow-up clarifying questions not asked. 

[David Von Pein]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If MacNeil used a public pay phone, the power would have been on for his phone call. 

According to Robert MacNeil himself in this November 18, 2000, interview (fast forward to 13:30), the telephone call he made from the Book Depository on 11/22/63 was made from one of the TSBD offices using "one of those old black phones with four clear Lucite buttons" :

"I went into an office. There was one of those old black phones with four clear Lucite buttons, and two of them were lit up and two of them weren't, and I dropped one down and I got through to NBC in about ten seconds." --Robert MacNeil; 11/18/2000

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, David Von Pein said:

According to Robert MacNeil himself in this November 18, 2000, interview (fast forward to 13:30), the telephone call he made from the Book Depository on 11/22/63 was made from one of the TSBD offices using "one of those old black phones with four clear Lucite buttons":

"I went into an office. There was one of those old black phones with four clear Lucite buttons, and two of them were lit up and two of them weren't, and I dropped one down and I got through to NBC in about ten seconds." --Robert MacNeil; 11/18/2000

http://www.paul-f.com/we500typ.htm

As you can see here, evidently there were model 500 phones (the old rotary dial phones) with four lights (model 544). Not sure they required additional city power, or operated only on phone company power. The photos do not show another power cord. 

Anybody know? 

 

[David Von Pein]

Benjamin,

But also keep in mind my previous post [below]. And this call being made by the girl in the office of Southwestern Publishing would have been taking place at almost exactly the same time as Robert MacNeil's phone call to NBC (maybe even a little earlier than MacNeil's):

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

We can be pretty sure the phones in the TSBD did not go "dead" right around the time of the assassination, because we have this additional testimony from Geneva Hine, which certainly implies that the phones were working within a short time of when the shooting occurred:

"And there was a girl in there [the office of Southwestern Publishing] talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door. .... I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her."

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

http://www.paul-f.com/we500typ.htm

As you can see here, evidently there were model 500 phones (the old rotary dial phones) with four lights (model 544). Not sure they required additional city power, or operated only on phone company power. The photos do not show another power cord. 

Anybody know? 

 

Standard connections were simply powered with the phone line (something between 40V to  90V I believe, not sure in the USA)

But Telephone exchange stations (that powered the telephone-lines) also had big batteries that could keep'm working for some time.   I am not sure on the switchboard, I think the larger ones also had chargeable batteries.

Anyway, telephones and switchboards works fully independent from regular power supply. 

But in case of an emergency and a lot of people calling the same time most lines would be occupied pretty fast

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Benjamin,

But also keep in mind my previous post [below]. And this call being made by the girl in the office of Southwestern Publishing would have been taking place at almost exactly the same time as Robert MacNeil's phone call to NBC (maybe even a little earlier than MacNeil's):

 

Yes, possibly. 

It is curious that someone in the office of Southwestern Publishing would not open the door.  

I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her."

---30--

Was the publisher girl really talking on the phone?  Feigning talking on the phone? 

I have often wondered if the publisher's offices (on 2nd and 4th floors?)  offered temporary refuge, or a hiding spot for weapons. 

AFAIK, the publisher's offices were never searched, nor was there any post-JFKA roll call of publisher employees. 

One of Jack Ruby's girls was working in one of the publisher's offices on 11/22. 

Connections? Just idle speculation of course. 

It would have been nice of the WC, way back when, asked follow-up questions on TSBD power, the elevators and the lights. 

Did the HSCA tackle the issue? 

[Bill Brown]

5 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Yes, possibly. 

It is curious that someone in the office of Southwestern Publishing would not open the door.  

I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her."

---30--

Was the publisher girl really talking on the phone?  Feigning talking on the phone? 

I have often wondered if the publisher's offices (on 2nd and 4th floors?)  offered temporary refuge, or a hiding spot for weapons. 

AFAIK, the publisher's offices were never searched, nor was there any post-JFKA roll call of publisher employees. 

One of Jack Ruby's girls was working in one of the publisher's offices on 11/22. 

Connections? Just idle speculation of course. 

It would have been nice of the WC, way back when, asked follow-up questions on TSBD power, the elevators and the lights. 

Did the HSCA tackle the issue? 

 

Did the HSCA tackle the issue?

 

There was no "issue" to tackle; only misunderstandings by those in the CT community decades later.

 

[Mark Knight]

Mark your calendars, because dates like today are rare.

I am in agreement with DVP. 

I believe that Geneva Hines wasn't as precise with her language as she could have been. The lights on the phones were out, which meant no one was using the phones at the moment she is describing.

A standard phone line carries 48 volts current [I was remembering 47 volts, but online sources corrected my misperception]. In a 1, 2, 3, or 4-line configuration as seen in 1963, there was no power source required from the building in which the phone was installed. When the phones go "dead" from no incoming or outgoing calls, there are no lights...on the phones themselves.

The Warren Commission was probably the worst investigative body ever at asking follow-up questions which might clarify any confusing testimony. But had they done so with Geneva Hines, I'd bet that the result would have been that DVP's assessment is correct. I'm about 99.9% convinced that "the lights went out" is one more rabbit hole that does nothing to determine the truth of what happened on 11/22/1963.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

6 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Mark your calendars, because dates like today are rare.

I am in agreement with DVP. 

I believe that Geneva Hines wasn't as precise with her language as she could have been. The lights on the phones were out, which meant no one was using the phones at the moment she is describing.

A standard phone line carries 48 volts current [I was remembering 47 volts, but online sources corrected my misperception]. In a 1, 2, 3, or 4-line configuration as seen in 1963, there was no power source required from the building in which the phone was installed. When the phones go "dead" from no incoming or outgoing calls, there are no lights...on the phones themselves.

The Warren Commission was probably the worst investigative body ever at asking follow-up questions which might clarify any confusing testimony. But had they done so with Geneva Hines, I'd bet that the result would have been that DVP's assessment is correct. I'm about 99.9% convinced that "the lights went out" is one more rabbit hole that does nothing to determine the truth of what happened on 11/22/1963.

 

Mark your calendars twice, as I suspect Mark Knight is right. 

In any event, there just isn't enough to go on, in this particular case. 

Now, try to explain how JBC was struck at Z-295 and JFK at Z-312 by a lone gunman armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle....

 

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Bill Brown said:

 

Did the HSCA tackle the issue?

 

There was no "issue" to tackle; only misunderstandings by those in the CT community decades later.

 

You may be right in the particular, and you may be wrong on the larger questions....but keep contributing. 

[David Von Pein]

6 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

I'm about 99.9% convinced that "the lights went out" is one more rabbit hole that does nothing to determine the truth of what happened on 11/22/1963.

And I'll ask once again....

Are there any other TSBD employees who reported a power outage or a phone outage at about 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63?

Or are CTers relying only on Geneva Hine's WC testimony to arrive at what I think is an incorrect conclusion?

Someone earlier said the Dal-Tex Building also suffered some sort of power outage on 11/22. Where does that info originate?

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Benjamin Cole]

11 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

And I'll ask once again....

Are there any other TSBD employees who reported a power outage or a phone outage at about 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63?

Or are CTers relying only on Geneva Hine's WC testimony to arrive at what I think is an incorrect conclusion?

Someone earlier said the Dal-Tex Building also suffered some sort of power outage on 11/22. Where does that info originate?

 

DVP--

I probably should start a new thread, but since we are here....do you know if the publisher's offices in the TSBD, which I think were on both the second and fourth floors, were searched on 11/22? 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Benjamin Cole

[David Von Pein]

32 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Now, try to explain how JBC was struck at Z-295 and JFK at Z-312 by a lone gunman armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle....

John Connally wasn't struck at Z295. That's yet another incorrect interpretation of the evidence.

Connally & Kennedy are reacting to external stimulus at precisely the same moment in time when they each jerk their right arms skyward at Z226. And the sum total of evidence (including JBC's own statements) indicates that Mr. Connally was struck by just ONE single bullet on 11/22. And CTers cannot possibly prove otherwise:

Plus....

We can also see in the Z-Film that JFK's arms/hands are NOT moving upward toward his throat just one frame earlier (between Z224 and Z225), which IMO negates the idea that JFK was already reacting prior to emerging from behind the Stemmons sign. A good argument can be made for JFK lowering his hands between Z224 & 225:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

Edited November 1, 2022 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

8 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

DVP--

I probably should start a new thread, but since we are here....do you know if the publisher's office in the TSBD, which I think were on both the second and fourth floors, were searched on 11/22? 

Offhand, I don't know the answer to that question. Sorry.