Elevators and Electricity

[Matt Allison]

Building power would have no effect whatsoever on the phones that were in use in 1963. None.

[Ron Bulman]

So, now with BB, DVP and Mark's interpretation we have "All of the lights, (on the phones only) went out, and the phones went Dead (no dial tone either?), Because the motorcade was coming. 

Because everyone doing business with the TSBD in Texas and other states Knew the motorcade was nearing it and quit calling out of respect to the president, so everyone there would have an opportunity to observe him passing by???  Absurd.

[Ron Bulman]

Yes, Geneva left her post after hearing the "cannon shots" and observing people running east on Elm and knocked on one locked office door for a moment with no result.  Then she knocked on another locked door with no result but heard someone talking on the phone.  She then went around down the back hall to the back door of the main office and went straight in to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in. 

Because all the customers in Texas and book companies in other states suddenly realized the president had by then passed the TSBD and they could respectfully conduct business without interfering with employees' privilege to see him pass by.

Or because the phones were cut off during the assassination, and maybe the electricity?

 

Mr. Ball.

Did you call to her?
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

Mr. Ball.

Of your office, the second floor office?
Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in.

 

 

[David Von Pein]

1 hour ago, Ron Bulman said:

...and the phones went Dead (no dial tone either?)...

When did Geneva Hine say there was no dial tone?

Answer: She didn't.

(At least you had the courtesy to put a question mark in there. Because you obviously have no idea whether there was a dial tone or not. You're merely assuming there wasn't.)

Edited November 1, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

5 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

When did Geneva Hine say there was no dial tone?

Answer: She didn't.

(At least you had the courtesy to put a question mark in there. Because you obviously have no idea whether there was a dial tone or not. You're merely assuming there wasn't.)

How did she know they were Dead just because the lights on them were out?  If everyone just suddenly quit calling she would have to pick up a receiver and punch a line to know they were Dead, no dial tone.

[David Von Pein]

15 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

How did she know they were Dead just because the lights on them were out?  If everyone just suddenly quit calling she would have to pick up a receiver and punch a line to know they were Dead, no dial tone.

Already explained two days ago....in this post.

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Ron Bulman]

Read her whole testimony lately?  

Maybe no one should trust the words of anyone.  She did say she heard 3 cannon shots, from 5 floors below.  A rifle, with as Mark pointed out with the muzzle out the window would not be heard.  But she did say All the lights were out, which she could personally observe, and that the phones were Dead.

John F. Kennedy Assassination Homepage :: Warren Commission :: Hearings :: Volume VI :: Page 393 (jfk-assassination.eu)

[Nick Bartetzko]

4 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

John Connally wasn't struck at Z295. That's yet another incorrect interpretation of the evidence.

Connally & Kennedy are reacting to external stimulus at precisely the same moment in time when they each jerk their right arms skyward at Z226. And the sum total of evidence (including JBC's own statements) indicates that Mr. Connally was struck by just ONE single bullet on 11/22. And CTers cannot possibly prove otherwise:

Plus....

We can also see in the Z-Film that JFK's arms/hands are NOT moving upward toward his throat just one frame earlier (between Z224 and Z225), which IMO negates the idea that JFK was already reacting prior to emerging from behind the Stemmons sign. A good argument can be made for JFK lowering his hands between Z224 & 225:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

It’s quite the magic bullet that pushes Kennedy forward and Connolly downward. Is there not a Getty photo of the shirt showing the frontal shirt damage higher than the rear damage? Those in attendance at Parkland described the throat wound as one of entry and Perry told Weisberg he wiped the blood away and it had a “ring of bruising”. As Posner would say…”Case Closed”. We also have a reference by Nellie Connelly that she felt her husband was struck twice. That information was via a link on a post here recently . 

[Benjamin Cole]

31 minutes ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

It’s quite the magic bullet that pushes Kennedy forward and Connolly downward. Is there not a Getty photo of the shirt showing the frontal shirt damage higher than the rear damage? Those in attendance at Parkland described the throat wound as one of entry and Perry told Weisberg he wiped the blood away and it had a “ring of bruising”. As Posner would say…”Case Closed”. We also have a reference by Nellie Connelly that she felt her husband was struck twice. That information was via a link on a post here recently . 

Nick B-

 

Thanks for your comments. 

 

I have done a lengthy post on this, and when I have time I will dredge it up for you. 

In the meantime, ponder this statement by JBC to the HSCA:

Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)

That---JBC being pushed forward---happens ~Z295.

JBC is upright after the first JFK shot to the neck, and then turns around over his own right shoulder to look, and then begins to turn forward again, and then is pushed forward at ~Z295 or even a frame or two later. 

JBC's being pushed forward makes sense, as the bullet was running  through four to five inches of rib, thus hitting solid body part. A bullet hitting a solid body part will push it. 

IMHO, this is pretty good evidence. 

There is a photo of the bullet hole in the rear of JBC's shirt, which is small and round---a direct shot. Not through the JFK's neck first and then a tumble first, in other words. 

 

[Nick Bartetzko]

23 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Nick B-

 

Thanks for your comments. 

 

I have done a lengthy post on this, and when I have time I will dredge it up for you. 

In the meantime, ponder this statement by JBC to the HSCA:

Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)

That---JBC being pushed forward---happens ~Z295.

JBC is upright after the first JFK shot to the neck, and then turns around over his own right shoulder to look, and then begins to turn forward again, and then is pushed forward at ~Z295 or even a frame or two later. 

JBC's being pushed forward makes sense, as the bullet was running  through four to five inches of rib, thus hitting solid body part. A bullet hitting a solid body part will push it. 

IMHO, this is pretty good evidence. 

There is a photo of the bullet hole in the rear of JBC's shirt, which is small and round---a direct shot. Not through the JFK's neck first and then a tumble first, in other words. 

 

Ben,

I’ve likely read your post. There’s so much to assimilate and sadly, I don’t have total recall. I’m up in the air on the JBC sequence. He seems to have been struck close to JFKs back wound. It appears he’s still gripping his hat and the wrist wound probably occurred later, maybe at Z295 as you say. There was a video of a presentation made some years ago…2013?… that shows an isolated side by side frame comparison of JFK and JBC reacting at Z328 I believe. The video was persuasive, but I’ve only seen it once. 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

Ben,

I’ve likely read your post. There’s so much to assimilate and sadly, I don’t have total recall. I’m up in the air on the JBC sequence. He seems to have been struck close to JFKs back wound. It appears he’s still gripping his hat and the wrist wound probably occurred later, maybe at Z295 as you say. There was a video of a presentation made some years ago…2013?… that shows an isolated side by side frame comparison of JFK and JBC reacting at Z328 I believe. The video was persuasive, but I’ve only seen it once. 

Well, we all have our own IMHOs....thanks for your comments. 

[Mark Knight]

Ben, 

I believe that your conclusion that Connally was hit at around Z-295 is consistent with what Connally said. I believe it was James Gordon who did a mock-up which showed the bullet that struck Connally made a tangential strike on the 5th (going by memory here) rib, bending the rib bone to the breaking point, rather than passing through the rib and sending rib fragments throughout Connally's lung. Like you, I believe Connally's movements at Z-224/225 show him reacting to the SOUND of a gunshot, likely the first shot which missed him. Until he's hit at around Z-295, Connally's trying to see what's happening behind him. Any forward movement of Connally might logically be a response to the limo slowing as Greer involuntarily takes his right foot off the accelerator to also turn to his right in an attempt to see what's going on behind him.

And the angle at which Connally is struck at Z-295 or thereabouts is more consistent with a shot from the southWEST window of the TSBD...STRONGLY suggesting a second shooter which the Z-313 hit on JFK would confirm.

[Paul Bacon]

12 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

I believe Connally's movements at Z-224/225 show him reacting to the SOUND of a gunshot, likely the first shot which missed him.

...as well as the tiny glass particles whizzing by (and maybe brushing) his left ear.

[Ron Bulman]

Reading the last few posts here I wondered how we got from in particular the recently new to me, A. Vicki Adams telling Sandra Styles privately she had seen the freight elevator cables moving while they were descending the stairs (more later), and, B. Vicki saying the front passenger elevator would not work when she came back inside approximately 5 minutes after the assassination.  To, Connally and Z film frames. 

I ended up back on Monday.  Where Ben in mid post changes subjects.  Then, naturally DVP takes the que and runs with it.  Touche gentlemen. 

[Ron Bulman]

On 10/24/2022 at 9:17 AM, Denny Zartman said:

From what I understand reading a statement by Charles Givens, people traveling in the elevator were visible to the people on the building floors and vice versa.

Yes and no.  Those on the west elevator faced the stairs in the NW corner.  So yes, visible to anyone entering/exiting the stairs, otherwise enclosed.  Those on the east facing elevator could be seen clearly by anyone in the NE portion of a given floor.  From about the sniper's nest on the sixth floor (ha!) to the SW corner passengers would be unobservable in either elevator.  And other floors as well.

I.E.  Someone could have gone down the west elevator immediately after the assassination without being seen by anyone other than someone entering or exiting the stairs on a given floor.