New Dallas Morning News Interview with Ruth Paine

[Joe Bauer]

Jeannie De Mohrenschildt willingly described her being appalled at Marina discussing her private sex life with Lee openly with her.

Volunteering how Lee was just not interested in sex enough for her needs.

He'd much rather read his books than satisfy Marina in her heat.

If Lee had overheard his wife saying this to anyone outside of their private lives one can imagine how enraged he would be.

Marina also said to Jeannie De M...
"Look at this idiot" ( Lee ) ... he buys a rifle when we need food. Or something like this.

IMO, Marina not only fell out of love with Lee soon after their arrival to the states ( if she ever was) but she also lost any normal respect for him as a husband, lover and man.

It isn't unreasonable to believe that after Lee tried to whack Walker and suggested Marina help him hijack a plane to Cuba, Marina already was mentally planning some type of escape out of her marriage to him...and jumped at the opportunity to move back to Irving with Ruth Paine.

It's sad to say this, but I think in some ways Marina was relieved that Lee and his scary risky and even crazy thoughts and behaviors were no longer in her life.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Joe Bauer

[Gene Kelly]

Joe

Not sure that I would reach the same conclusions about Marina that you have.  All of this is purely speculative. She was only 22 years old (and possibly a KGB dangle).  Lee wasn't much older, and just a kid ... both of them were being manipulated/used by older more sophisticated people who didn't have their best interests in mind.  They were only a couple for about two years ...  not much time to develop any semblance of a relationship.  

Gene

[Tom Gram]

8 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Pat

I don't disagree with what you point out here.  Needless to say, Lee Oswald was an enigma that we have all been trying to deconstruct and understand for a long time.  When I get caught up in these analyses, it helps for perspective to remember that he was only in his early 20's, raised by a single mother, and a young adult when all of this transpired ... just a kid, really.  

He never knew his father - who had passed away from a heart attack before Oswald’s birth - and had a very small family (one brother named Robert and a half-brother named John).  As a child, he lived in over twenty different residences, attended at least eleven different schools and never got past 10th grade.  He joined the Marines at age 17 and served three years, where he was punished for accidentally shooting himself and improperly discharging his firearm while on patrol, and also managed to learn Russian before being discharged. He infamously defected to Russia in October 1959 - spent a few years in the Soviet Union - returned to the US in June 1962 with a pretty Russian bride (two years younger) and fathered two daughters (June and Rachel).

The Oswalds briefly lived in Fort Worth, New Orleans and Dallas over a span of just 18 months before young Lee was killed.  He had quite the collection of nefarious handlers, mentors and acquaintances in that controversial period of time ... one might say that he chose the wrong circle of friends. In a March 1995 interview of his daughter Rachel, she stated the following about the father she never knew:

“I think Lee was this 24-year-old guy, this youngster, who got himself in over his head. Lee was intelligent, but he was no genius. I don’t know who else was involved, but clearly it was too big of a deal for one 24-year-old kid to do by himself. For example, right before the shooting someone asked my mother to take a picture of Lee holding a rifle, and then right after the shooting, the picture is confiscated, and everyone says, ‘Look there’s the gun, there’s the guy who did it, case closed.’ There are just too many loose ends for it all to be dumped on my father. It was just too big of a deal."

Gene

 

 

 

Who’s this someone that told Marina to take a photo of Oswald holding a rifle “just before the shooting”? Is this something Rachel got from Marina?

Also, I agree with the above assessments of the Oswalds’ relationship but I also think it’s worth looking into when the only actual alleged witness to Lee hitting Marina is the sketchiest person imaginable and there is what amounts to indisputable proof that he lied about the incident to federal law enforcement. 

Edited November 24, 2022 by Tom Gram

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Joe

Not sure that I would reach the same conclusions about Marina that you have.  All of this is purely speculative. She was only 22 years old (and possibly a KGB dangle).  Lee wasn't much older, and just a kid ... both of them were being manipulated/used by older more sophisticated people who didn't have their best interests in mind.  They were only a couple for about two years ...  not much time to develop any semblance of a relationship.  

Gene

True.

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

9 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

In a March 1995 interview of [Oswald's] daughter Rachel, she stated the following about the father she never knew:

“I think Lee was this 24-year-old guy, this youngster, who got himself in over his head. Lee was intelligent, but he was no genius. I don’t know who else was involved, but clearly it was too big of a deal for one 24-year-old kid to do by himself. For example, right before the shooting someone asked my mother to take a picture of Lee holding a rifle, and then right after the shooting, the picture is confiscated, and everyone says, ‘Look there’s the gun, there’s the guy who did it, case closed.’ There are just too many loose ends for it all to be dumped on my father. It was just too big of a deal."

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

Who’s this someone that told Marina to take a photo of Oswald holding a rifle “just before the shooting”? Is this something Rachel got from Marina?

 

I'll bet that Rachel got some of what she said from Priscilla McMillan's book, Marina and Lee.

 

[Gene Kelly]

I think Rachele's synopsis is how I would characterize young Lee Oswald:

A youngster, who got himself in over his head. ... intelligent, but no genius. Clearly, the assassination was too big of a deal for one 24-year-old kid to do by himself.  Lee is convicted based on a picture of him holding a rifle ... "look there’s the gun and the guy who did it, case closed."  Too many loose ends for it all to be dumped on a kid; It was just too big of a deal.

[Max Good]

Priscilla Johnson McMillan told me that one of Oswald's daughters came to visit or stay with her at some point (probably in the 80s or 90s) and they were actually going through her files trying to find evidence that Priscilla was not on the level.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Max Good said:

Priscilla Johnson McMillan told me that one of Oswald's daughters came to visit or stay with her at some point (probably in the 80s or 90s) and they were actually going through her files trying to find evidence that Priscilla was not on the level.

I would be doing the same, but would also try to keep some distance from the whole thing.  Imagine living with such a question.  Give it a go, but try to let it go after some time.   I think June and Rachel both did ok, every now and then an interview (very few actually) and going on with - the most important - their own lives.

I hope they are doing fine, I wish them all the best, they never asked for any of this.  

  

Edited November 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:09 PM, Pat Speer said:

Greetings. I think that's a fair article. It presents her viewpoint. Granberry has written some articles on the case in the past, that were largely unbiased. I remember also that at one point, when I was optimistic about the press accurately presenting some JFKA evidence that had largely gone unreported, I sent out a group email to like 50 reporters. As I recall Granberry was one of maybe three to respond. He said something like "Keep me posted."

Reading articles like this can be of value for a number of reasons. One should never take them at face value, IMO. But one can notice things in articles like this that spur one on to further research. In this case, I notice that Ruth says she wasn't asked about the Walker note for months after the shooting. The WR says the FBI discovered this note in a book handed over by Ruth on December 2, but a week and a half after the assassination.  Is her memory faulty? Or did the FBI fail to ask her about the note for months after its discovery? Or was its "discovery" (and possible creation) actually months later than claimed in the WR? 

I sense an upcoming journey to the MFF website. But if someone else wants to beat me to it, that would be fab. 

Pat, have you found anything on the MFF website ?

I was unable to access the MFF-website for over a week.

So, below is all I could find on the earliest statement regarding the letter.

As it seems the Secret Service was informed on 12/2 and they questioned Ruth the same day.

 

From the first F.B.I. docs :

1) Unknown date : Ruth Paine (?) to Paul Barger (Irving, Police Captain )

2) 11/30 (?) Paul Barger (Irving Police Captain) to Leon Power (Irving, Assistant Chief of Police)

3) 12/2 Leon Power (Irving Assistant Chief of Police) to John Looper(Irving, Police Detective)

4) 12/2 John Looper (Irving, Police Detective) a Special Agent, Secret Service (?)

5) 12/4 Dallas FBI notes on the above by Special Agent James P.Hosty Jr. and James J. Ward....

Next, Ruth Paine stating in the Bardwell D. Odum (Special Agent / FBI) - report (rep.dd. 12/4, dict. 12/5, dd. upper right corner 12/6) 

1) 11/30 she took the items to the Irving Police Station (and handed them to - she assumed - a Captain)

2) 12/2  visited by 2 Secret Service Agents and asked about the books and the note (Ruth states she had not seen the note before),

Edited November 25, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

The thing is (on the Walker note), who found the actual note...

The way it was handled (Irving PD) looks like Ruth wasn't aware in first (as she claimed).

But wouldn't ALL evidence be forwarded to the Secret Service, before it might be handed over to Marina (in this case the children stuff, and cookbooks) ?  

Ruth's initial thinking was perhaps Irving PD would simply take it to Marina (a bit naive thinking if this was so)

 

 

 

[Pat Speer]

38 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Pat, have you found anything on the MFF website ?

I was unable to access the MFF-website for over a week.

So, below is all I could find on the earliest statement regarding the letter.

As it seems the Secret Service was informed on 12/2 and they questioned Ruth the same day.

 

From the first F.B.I. docs :

1) Unknown date : Ruth Paine (?) to Paul Barger (Irving, Police Captain )

2) 11/30 (?) Paul Barger (Irving Police Captain) to Leon Power (Irving, Assistant Chief of Police)

3) 12/2 Leon Power (Irving Assistant Chief of Police) to John Looper(Irving, Police Detective)

4) 12/2 John Looper (Irving, Police Detective) a Special Agent, Secret Service (?)

5) 12/4 Dallas FBI notes on the above by Special Agent James P.Hosty Jr. and James J. Ward....

Next, Ruth Paine stating in the Bardwell D. Odum (Special Agent / FBI) - report (rep.dd. 12/4, dict. 12/5, dd. upper right corner 12/6) 

1) 11/30 she took the items to the Irving Police Station (and handed hem to - she assumed - a Captain)

2) 12/2  visited by 2 Secret Service Agents and asked about the books and the note (Ruth states she had not seen the note before),

Great work. Thanks.  After the first couple of posts in response to my question, I assumed that was the case. As years pass, most of us have trouble keeping track of what happened on one day vs what happened a week or even months and years later. That is one of the reasons I put little stock in decades-later witness statements claiming they saw the Z-film on TV in '63, or that they spoke to  Dr. Humes on the night of the assassination, etc. Human memory just isn't all that reliable. 

ARRB honcho Jeremy Gunn discussed this in a presentation. He mentioned that when he questioned the Parkland doctors, one of them felt certain Jackie was dressed in white (as opposed to pink) on the day of the shooting. Research on human cognition has shown, moreover, that the clarity and certainty of distant memories bears little correlation to their accuracy. 

I have had a front row seat on this myself, as I have weekly dinners with my friend and his dad, who is slipping into dementia. Mr. D, who is in his mid-80's, will sometimes insist on something that is clearly not true, even though he knows he has problems with his memory. The feeling of truth just overwhelms him. A few weeks back, for instance, my brother joined us for dinner, and Mr. D insisted he was not my brother, since he'd known me for a long time and "knew" I had no brothers. Well, the sad fact is that Mr. D not only knew I had a brother, but had met my brother and played basketball with my brother 50 times or more. Tragic. 

And this feeling of certainty about incorrect info isn't just something that happens to octogenarians. At this week's dinner, my friend was discussing Elton John's recent performances at Dodger Stadium. He mentioned that Elton did some of his more recent hits as well as his oldies, including "I'm Still Standing" which he said was about 15 years old. Well, one of my other friends quickly got on his phone and looked it up, and found that the song was actually almost 40 years old. 

Time keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping, into the future...

Edited November 25, 2022 by Pat Speer