New Dallas Morning News Interview with Ruth Paine

[David Von Pein]

3 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

All Marguerite knew is what Marina privately told her.

So Marina's the li@r, is that it?

~sigh~

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by David Von Pein

[Sandy Larsen]

2 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

So Marina's the xxxx on this issue, is that it?

 

It got her a lot of attention.

 

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

So Marina's the li@r, is that it?

~sigh~

 

If anyone’s a xxxx on this issue, it’s Alex Kleinlerer. He was interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service on the exact same day (I think it was 12/4/63) and told two ridiculously different stories about witnessing Oswald hit Marina at Elena Hall’s house. I’ll find and post the quotes when I get the time - it’s next level BS. 

[Gene Kelly]

Maybe we should ask Judyth Vary Baker if Lee was abusive ... this entire debate is nonsense.  It's like being asked: "when did you stop beating your wife?" (i.e., a loaded question ... a logical fallacy)

[David Von Pein]

15 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

this entire debate is nonsense.

I tend to agree. Because whether or not LHO beat his wife certainly has no bearing whatsoever on the bigger question of: "Did LHO Kill JFK & Officer Tippit?"

[Gene Kelly]

2 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

If anyone’s a xxxx on this issue, it’s Alex Kleinlerer. He was interviewed by the FBI and Secret Service on the exact same day (I think it was 12/4/63) and told two ridiculously different stories about witnessing Oswald hit Marina at Elena Hall’s house. I’ll find and post the quotes when I get the time - it’s next level BS. 

Tom

Neither George nor Jeannie deMohrenscildt witnessed the alleged abuse of Marina by Lee ... yet they promoted that story - effectively separating Lee and Marina (and turning them over to the Paines) - which became hearsay amongst the White Russian community.  A February 2017 article in Kennedys and King, "Was Oswald a Serial Wife Batterer?" highlights the Warren testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson, their daughter, with whom Marina initially stayed (she was the former Mrs. Gary Taylor):

Mr. Jenner: Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson: Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiancée, Alex--

Mr. Jenner: Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer? Mrs. Gibson: I guess so. I don't know his name. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.

Mr. Jenner: Tell us where this occurred? Mrs. Gibson: This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.

Jenner: Had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina? Mrs. Gibson: No; we never talked to him about beating his wife.

Alexander Kleinlerer is the only person to apparently witness first-hand the abusive Oswald ... but he was never deposed by the Warren Commission. 

Gene

[Paul Brancato]

55 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Tom

Neither George nor Jeannie deMohrenscildt witnessed the alleged abuse of Marina by Lee ... yet they promoted that story - effectively separating Lee and Marina (and turning them over to the Paines) - which became hearsay amongst the White Russian community.  A February 2017 article in Kennedys and King, "Was Oswald a Serial Wife Batterer?" highlights the Warren testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson, their daughter, with whom Marina initially stayed (she was the former Mrs. Gary Taylor):

Mr. Jenner: Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson: Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiancée, Alex--

Mr. Jenner: Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer? Mrs. Gibson: I guess so. I don't know his name. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.

Mr. Jenner: Tell us where this occurred? Mrs. Gibson: This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.

Jenner: Had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina? Mrs. Gibson: No; we never talked to him about beating his wife.

Alexander Kleinlerer is the only person to apparently witness first-hand the abusive Oswald ... but he was never deposed by the Warren Commission. 

Gene

I love Mrs Gibson’s description of Kleinerer. Or is it Kleinlerer? Creepy guy. 

[John Cotter]

4 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Tom

Neither George nor Jeannie deMohrenscildt witnessed the alleged abuse of Marina by Lee ... yet they promoted that story - effectively separating Lee and Marina (and turning them over to the Paines) - which became hearsay amongst the White Russian community.  A February 2017 article in Kennedys and King, "Was Oswald a Serial Wife Batterer?" highlights the Warren testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson, their daughter, with whom Marina initially stayed (she was the former Mrs. Gary Taylor):

Mr. Jenner: Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson: Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiancée, Alex--

Mr. Jenner: Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer? Mrs. Gibson: I guess so. I don't know his name. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.

Mr. Jenner: Tell us where this occurred? Mrs. Gibson: This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.

Jenner: Had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina? Mrs. Gibson: No; we never talked to him about beating his wife.

Alexander Kleinlerer is the only person to apparently witness first-hand the abusive Oswald ... but he was never deposed by the Warren Commission. 

Gene

So when you sift through the “evidence” for Oswald allegedly beating his wife, there’s very little if anything of substance there.

Moreover, what evidence there is must be viewed with the utmost scepticism in light of Oswald having been sheep-dipped, patsified and murdered in order to portray him as the sole irredeemable villain of the JFKA conspiracy drama. Smearing him as a wife-beater completes the picture.

In other words, as illustrated by the rehashing of the issue here, it’s a red herring designed to divert attention from the substantive matter, the scapegoating of Oswald for the JFKA and Ruth Paine’s latest contribution in that regard.

Edited November 22, 2022 by John Cotter

[Tom Gram]

6 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Tom

Neither George nor Jeannie deMohrenscildt witnessed the alleged abuse of Marina by Lee ... yet they promoted that story - effectively separating Lee and Marina (and turning them over to the Paines) - which became hearsay amongst the White Russian community.  A February 2017 article in Kennedys and King, "Was Oswald a Serial Wife Batterer?" highlights the Warren testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson, their daughter, with whom Marina initially stayed (she was the former Mrs. Gary Taylor):

Mr. Jenner: Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Gibson: Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiancée, Alex--

Mr. Jenner: Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer? Mrs. Gibson: I guess so. I don't know his name. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.

Mr. Jenner: Tell us where this occurred? Mrs. Gibson: This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth. Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.

Jenner: Had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your husband ever talk to Lee Oswald about his treatment of Marina? Mrs. Gibson: No; we never talked to him about beating his wife.

Alexander Kleinlerer is the only person to apparently witness first-hand the abusive Oswald ... but he was never deposed by the Warren Commission. 

Gene

Thanks Gene. Kleinlerer is as shady as it gets. On Nov. 23rd, the CIA turned over two envelopes Marina had sent to Russia in Jan ‘63 to the FBI that had 602 Elsbeth listed as a return address - which is interesting enough on its own since Marina had been using P.O. Box 2915 exclusively since fall ‘62. However, the envelopes also listed a different P.O. Box number as a business return address for the Texas Import Export Company. The FBI decided to investigate and ended up talking to Alex Kleinlerer. Kleinlerer said the Texas Import Export company was a fake company set up by his real company to handle foreign accounts - but he was the only one in control of it and the P.O. Box. He said he must’ve left some of the stationary at Elena Hall’s house and Marina took it with her when she moved out to Elsbeth. That was good enough for the FBI - they never followed up with Marina or Kleinlerer’s employer to verify the information, and worst of all the envelopes were never turned over to the WC. Also, as far as I know, the contents of those envelopes have never been seen. The letters were intercepted by the CIA Hunter program but only the envelopes were turned over to the FBI. 

I think Kleinlerer was never deposed for a reason. From what I’ve read about this guy he might as well have had the word “spy” stamped across his forehead. He’s like the Bill Dalzell of Dallas. 

[Pat Speer]

I don't understand why people think it has to be one way or the other. It's as if they've never been in a relationship. There were money issues in the relationship, and sex issues, and it's clear they argued frequently. It's not surprising, then, that this sometimes turned violent. But it's a mistake, IMO, to take from this that Oswald was a wife-beater, with a predilection towards violence. My impression is that Marina nagged the crap out of him, and may even have provoked much of Lee's violence though her own violent actions. I think further that some saw her blue eyes and thin frame and assumed she was a sweet victim in all this. But the DeMohrenschildts and Paines knew better. My two cents. 

Edited November 22, 2022 by Pat Speer

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I don't understand why people think it has to be one way or the other. It's as if they've never been in a relationship.

Thank you, Pat. I'm alarmed by how many people on this forum seem incapable of seeing the nuance in this particular issue.

[Guest]

As with a bunch of other issues on the JFKA it's all or nothing again.

I'm feeling some stuff has been over-analysed over the years, like his character.

In trying to making a point, the character is often used to emphasize a certain conclusion. 

Pretty much what the WC did... but the other way around, while there is no need to do so.

Even some known serial killers were good-house-fathers and/or ideal workmen in every day life.  Often it doesn't mean a thing...  well... lawyers wont agree of course, they will paint their client or opponent in whatever suits the case.

   

Edited November 22, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Gene Kelly]

20 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Thanks Gene. Kleinlerer is as shady as it gets. On Nov. 23rd, the CIA turned over two envelopes Marina had sent to Russia in Jan ‘63 to the FBI that had 602 Elsbeth listed as a return address - which is interesting enough on its own since Marina had been using P.O. Box 2915 exclusively since fall ‘62. However, the envelopes also listed a different P.O. Box number as a business return address for the Texas Import Export Company. The FBI decided to investigate and ended up talking to Alex Kleinlerer. Kleinlerer said the Texas Import Export company was a fake company set up by his real company to handle foreign accounts - but he was the only one in control of it and the P.O. Box. He said he must’ve left some of the stationary at Elena Hall’s house and Marina took it with her when she moved out to Elsbeth. That was good enough for the FBI - they never followed up with Marina or Kleinlerer’s employer to verify the information, and worst of all the envelopes were never turned over to the WC. Also, as far as I know, the contents of those envelopes have never been seen. The letters were intercepted by the CIA Hunter program but only the envelopes were turned over to the FBI. 

I think Kleinlerer was never deposed for a reason. From what I’ve read about this guy he might as well have had the word “spy” stamped across his forehead. He’s like the Bill Dalzell of Dallas. 

Tom

In the February 2017 article "Was Oswald a Serial Wife Batterer" published in Kennedys and King., the author speculates that the Warren Commission avoided taking testimony from Kleinlerer because he made certain observations about Marina (and her odd relationship with Lee) that were telling: 

 I expressed to Mrs. Hall and to my friend George Bouhe, and to others that I thought that they were only worsening things because the Oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. He acted as though the world owed him a living. I had the impression from time to time that Marina was pretending and acting.”

Alexander Kleinlerer was born in Poland and had been confined in Buchenwald concentration camp. He lived in Czechoslovakia and then worked in France until he became a naturalized American citizen in May 1963. He was acquainted with the White Russian crowd and is quite the interesting character.  An October 2016 EF Thread entitled "The Bouhe Files" highlights declassified HSCA records which describe an FBI report from December 1968, about an incident involving a former member of the 66th Military Intelligence Group, involving Kleinlerer: 

Kleinlerer did a great deal of traveling for Loma Industries, Fort Worth, where he was employed as a research engineer. Kleinlerer had told Mrs. Bloodworth that he did not particularly want to make his upcoming trip to France, and appeared to be worried about something, Kleinlerer further told Mrs. Bloodworth that he had two passports, one for the USA and one for France, and that while in France, he traveled under a different name

I'm not too familiar with Mrs. Elena Hall.  She was a member of the White Russian cabal (Anna Meller, George Bouhe, George deMohrenschildt, Max Clark, Elena Hall, Lydia Dymitruk and Igor Vladimir Voshinin) surrounding the Oswald's.  She and her husband were apparently from New York and, when they separated, Kleinlerer apparently dated/courted her. So, I also don't put much stock in the second-hand comments of Elena Hall (another one of Oswald's character assassins).  If you read Kleinlerer’s Warren Commission testimony, he really does a number on Oswald, painting him in the worst possible light (as a husband and a Communist). It was way over the top ... for example:

We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway, he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry, but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything.

I did some digging on Kleinlerer and found out that, in March 2008, Dr. Michal Freda Kleinlerer and Dr. Jonathan David Shenkin were married at Blue Hill at Stone Barns, the restaurant on the Rockefeller family’s Pocantico Hills estate in Tarrytown, N.Y. The bride was an orthodontist with practices in Bangor and Waterville, Maine. and graduated magna cum laude from the University of Pennsylvania with two degrees from Harvard: a Doctor of Medical Dentistry and a Master of Medical Science in developmental biology. She was the daughter of Alexander Kleinlerer of New York and the late Nitza Kleinlerer.  The Rockefeller connection is intriguing. 

Gene

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

The Rockefeller connection is intriguing. 

Gene, come on. There's no "Rockefeller connection" - for crying out loud, the restaurant you are referencing is one of the most well-regarded in the NYC five boroughs. That would be like me saying you had a "connection" with Donald Trump because one of your children got married at a Trump golf course ...

[Gene Kelly]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:47 AM, Pat Speer said:

I don't understand why people think it has to be one way or the other. It's as if they've never been in a relationship. There were money issues in the relationship, and sex issues, and it's clear they argued frequently. It's not surprising, then, that this sometimes turned violent. But it's a mistake, IMO, to take from this that Oswald was a wife-beater, with a predilection towards violence. My impression is that Marina nagged the crap out of him, and may even have provoked much of Lee's violence though her own violent actions. I think further that some saw her blue eyes and thin frame and assumed she was a sweet victim in all this. But the DeMohrenschildts and Paines knew better. My two cents. 

Pat

I don't disagree with what you point out here.  Needless to say, Lee Oswald was an enigma that we have all been trying to deconstruct and understand for a long time.  When I get caught up in these analyses, it helps for perspective to remember that he was only in his early 20's, raised by a single mother, and a young adult when all of this transpired ... just a kid, really.  

He never knew his father - who had passed away from a heart attack before Oswald’s birth - and had a very small family (one brother named Robert and a half-brother named John).  As a child, he lived in over twenty different residences, attended at least eleven different schools and never got past 10th grade.  He joined the Marines at age 17 and served three years, where he was punished for accidentally shooting himself and improperly discharging his firearm while on patrol, and also managed to learn Russian before being discharged. He infamously defected to Russia in October 1959 - spent a few years in the Soviet Union - returned to the US in June 1962 with a pretty Russian bride (two years younger) and fathered two daughters (June and Rachel).

The Oswalds briefly lived in Fort Worth, New Orleans and Dallas over a span of just 18 months before young Lee was killed.  He had quite the collection of nefarious handlers, mentors and acquaintances in that controversial period of time ... one might say that he chose the wrong circle of friends. In a March 1995 interview of his daughter Rachel, she stated the following about the father she never knew:

“I think Lee was this 24-year-old guy, this youngster, who got himself in over his head. Lee was intelligent, but he was no genius. I don’t know who else was involved, but clearly it was too big of a deal for one 24-year-old kid to do by himself. For example, right before the shooting someone asked my mother to take a picture of Lee holding a rifle, and then right after the shooting, the picture is confiscated, and everyone says, ‘Look there’s the gun, there’s the guy who did it, case closed.’ There are just too many loose ends for it all to be dumped on my father. It was just too big of a deal."

Gene