A framework for analyzing JFKA conspiracy theories (really!)

[Benjamin Cole]

18 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Please, consult with all the firearms specialists you wish. They will uniformly tell you that modern rifles and ammunition do not emit discernible puffs of smoke. People smoking cigarettes and cigars do. Or perhaps you think the back-up assassins were armed with muzzle-loading blunderbusses so they could claim to be participating in a 17th Century historical reenactment if questioned by the police or Secret Service? (I like it!)

I love how CTers posit military-grade sniper teams and spotters throughout Dealey Plaza, but those crack shots used rifles that emitted clouds of smoke and made more noise than a hand grenade. Rifle silencers were available in 1963. Again, we have the "Geniuses at step 1, idiots at step 2" scenario so common in Conspiracy World. If the theory demands, the same teams who were using muzzle-loading blunderbusses were also using ice bullets that melted upon impact and left no trace. Oh, please, it's just all too silly.

LP--

You are wrong on this score. Even today, gun enthusiasts will tell you "cheap ammo" will smoke. The Egyptian brand was known for being smokey a few years back. I do not know if this is still the case. 

That said, snub-nose .38s fire ammo that is often "hand packed" by enthusiasts. 

When hand-packing, all varieties of gunpowder can be used, including smokey powder. 

Someone could have hand-packed ammo for a snub-nose .38 on 11/22, and fired a diversionary shot from the GK area. 

Dallas Police Office Joe Hill, a veteran, was there and smelled gunsmoke. 

It is not accurate to assume that modern firearms will not smoke when fired. Also if there is lube in the barrel, that will tend to smoke. Short-barrel weapons will smoke more than long-barrel weapons. 

[Charles Blackmon]

6 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

LP--

You are wrong on this score. Even today, gun enthusiasts will tell you "cheap ammo" will smoke. The Egyptian brand was known for being smokey a few years back. I do not know if this is still the case. 

That said, snub-nose .38s fire ammo that is often "hand packed" by enthusiasts. 

When hand-packing, all varieties of gunpowder can be used, including smokey powder. 

Someone could have hand-packed ammo for a snub-nose .38 on 11/22, and fired a diversionary shot from the GK area. 

Dallas Police Office Joe Hill, a veteran, was there and smelled gunsmoke. 

It is not accurate to assume that modern firearms will not smoke when fired. Also if there is lube in the barrel, that will tend to smoke. Short-barrel weapons will smoke more than long-barrel weapons. 

Too late Ben Lance the Firearm Specialist has already hit-and-run lol

[Charles Blackmon]

32 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

Oh, please, it's just all too silly.

We agree..about your word salads.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I sure hope the Mob did not have enough pull to direct LHO to Russia, then New Orleans, Mexico City to Dallas, and then suffocate real investigations into the JFKA three times--the WC, Garrison and the HSCA. And to prevent release of docs to this day. 

First- the Marcello tapes have been sealed. Instead of relying on DOJ employees assertions of what Marcello did or did not say, we have asked in our lawsuit to have NARA ask DOJ to arrange to have the tapes unsealed so we can hear what he actually said and how he said it which can be as important. 

With respect to your comment, obviously the mob did not have to get oswald into USSR or otherwise control his movements. Marcello and Costello had Hoover by the short-hairs since he used he was given tips on fixed horse races that he bet on. Hoover actually called off the New Orleans FBI office when it started sniffing around Marcello's associated in December 1963. 

Blakely was wrong when he told Tony that the mob did not go after politicians. Marcello assassinated the president of a latin american country and used a patsy who I believe was killed in the palace. He also had the incoming attorney general of Mississippi -both in the 1950s. Earlier, a Chicago mayor was killed by the mob.

And The mob also didnt have to worry about any documents. Marcello and others did not put things in writing. 

Have you read John Davis' books "Mafia Kingfish" and the "Kennedy Contract"?  They are probably the best books on this topic.

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Ben- I followed-up with Ernst Titovets with specific questions about Oswald, particularly on his Russian language abilities and if he had any formal training. I also asked him to account how the CIA translator in Mexico City would have said that the person saying he was Oswald spoke terrible Russian. I did not get back satisfactory answers on the language question and he declined to comment about Mexico City. I was hopeful that Ernst might have a genuine new insights into Oswald. As a lawyer, I often have to evaluate the truthfulness of witness accounts. My brief encounter with Ernst was disappointing and I now doubt the veracity of much of what he has written.  And nothing he has said contradicts that the theory that someone could have been manipulating the spy wanabe Lee Oswald into appearing to be a pro-Castro sympathizer  as opposed to being an actual Castro supporter.       

[Greg Doudna]

38 minutes ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Blakely was wrong when he told Tony that the mob did not go after politicians. Marcello assassinated the president of a latin american country and used a patsy who I believe was killed in the palace. He also had the incoming attorney general of Mississippi -both in the 1950s. Earlier, a Chicago mayor was killed by the mob.

Lawrence, do you have any more information or source on Marcello connected to that (in bold)? I don't recall reading that in any of the Marcello/mob books.

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

First- the Marcello tapes have been sealed. Instead of relying on DOJ employees assertions of what Marcello did or did not say, we have asked in our lawsuit to have NARA ask DOJ to arrange to have the tapes unsealed so we can hear what he actually said and how he said it which can be as important. 

With respect to your comment, obviously the mob did not have to get oswald into USSR or otherwise control his movements. Marcello and Costello had Hoover by the short-hairs since he used he was given tips on fixed horse races that he bet on. Hoover actually called off the New Orleans FBI office when it started sniffing around Marcello's associated in December 1963. 

Blakely was wrong when he told Tony that the mob did not go after politicians. Marcello assassinated the president of a latin american country and used a patsy who I believe was killed in the palace. He also had the incoming attorney general of Mississippi -both in the 1950s. Earlier, a Chicago mayor was killed by the mob.

And The mob also didnt have to worry about any documents. Marcello and others did not put things in writing. 

Have you read John Davis' books "Mafia Kingfish" and the "Kennedy Contract"?  They are probably the best books on this topic.

LS-

 

I read one of the Davis books, only a couple of years ago.

It was a good read, but there was quite of bit of unsubstantiated evidence, such as a couple who thought they saw LHO talking to a mobster and so on. These LHO sightings after the JFKA...well, LHO not only had a double, he was put into mass production from the number of sightings out there. 

No doubt Ferrie was close to Marcello. That is interesting 

But you did not answer my main two points: 

Who was running LHO, and the LHO story, pre- and post-JFKA? 

Sending LHO to Russia, and Mexico City, building the LHO biography---that seems way beyond what the Mob could do. 

Also controlling the LHO story post-JFKA---again, seems like a federal government job. 

However, I admire you for trying to get the Marcello tapes and docs opened. 

Also it could be elements within the CIA detailed Marcello to the job, which he wanted to do anyway.

The CIA could have told Marcello gunsels the right things to say to LHO on 11/22, to get him to comply with some sort of mission. To agree to be in a secluded place within the TSBD on 11/22 as the President passed.

Also, from what I understand, characters like Eladio Del Valle and Hermininio Diaz were both CIA assets and also had Mob links. 

Interesting topic, and I look forward to what you dig up. 

 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Greg- Marcello was behind the assassination of Guatamalen president Armas around 1956. He also was behind the murder of the incoming Mississippi attorney general Patterson. 

  

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Lance- interesting 1993 piece by former DOJ attorney who worked for RFK's organized crime unit. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1993/03/14/what-the-mob-knew-about-jfks-murder/9803e911-f52f-4944-88f1-c26863e35867/ 

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Lance- here is 2013 piece discussing what Waldron came up with about the alleged Marcello confession as part of the CAMTEX sting operation. we are trying to get these recordings unsealed so we can hear his words instead of relying on disinterested DOJ attorneys who are too busy to pursue yet another investigation. https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/11/17/The-Issue-The-Kennedy-assassination-did-the-mob-do-it/41021384680600/

We are also considering filing a petition with the DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility seeking sanctions for the attorneys who failed to follow-up on these potentially exculpatory leads since this could have been violation of their "Brady" obligations.    

[Lawrence Schnapf]

Lance- and here is Italian journalist Stefano Vaccara YouTube presentation about his book: "Carlos Marcello: The Man Behind the JFK Assassination" 

 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

15 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Again, we have the "Geniuses at step 1, idiots at step 2" scenario so common in Conspiracy World.

At least as common in LN world.

LHO the cold-blooded psychopathic/commie killer who perfectly plans the assassination of a president but somehow doesn’t have a clue how to exit the area shortly after. 

[Michaleen Kilroy]

16 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Unfortunately for you, I know what I'm talking about and know people who know what they're talking about:

ok now you’ve lost any credibility with me.

Bill Harvey, head of executive action for the CIA, was besties with Johnny Roselli, future mobster in a can. The FBI was conducting surveillance on Roselli in summer ‘63 and was shocked to hear Harvey in his presence. They got to Angleton for an answer and he told them to let it be.

Yeah, only the best operatives for the agency. Whatta crock. 

[Ron Ege]

19 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I think it's naive to think Oswald had an identifiable motive in the sense that he could have articulated on November 21, even to himself, "Tomorrow I am going to shoot the President because ...."

The fact he urged Marina to move to Dallas with him and promised her an apartment and washing machine is pretty strong evidence his thinking was in flux. As Marina herself speculated, if she'd agreed there might well have been no assassination.

If you accept the Walker attempt as legitimate, this might tell us quite a bit about his psyche and how little in the way of motive it took for him to attempt something like this, Walker being the polar opposite of JFK.

I believe the JFKA can be explained without pinning down a single motive.

Oswald was intelligent and viewed himself as an intellectual destined for a place in history. His stint in the Marines was a disaster. He defected to the USSR with a utopian notion of Marxism and a belief he'd be made a professor or political advisor in Moscow; instead, he found himself working in a factory in the backwater of Minsk, disillusioned with the opressive and largely counterfeit Soviet version of Marxism. He returned to the U.S. to find no reporters waiting to be fascinated by him. He could find nothing but menial employment and squalid living conditions. His marriage began to unravel. He shifted his utopian Marxism and dreams of a place in history to Castro's Cuba, but his trip to Mexico City was yet another disaster. He found himself living alone in a closet-sized room and working as a lowly order-filler at the TSBD. Bingo, he learned JFK's motorcade would pass right below him. He made one last attempt at reconciliation with Marina, then said the hell with it and decided to seal his place in history by seizing the opportunity Fate had handed him. If he died in the process, I'm not sure he cared. If caught, he would strut his Marxist ideology and his own quirky philosophy at a lengthy trial with the sympathetic assistance of the general counsel for the Communist Party USA. If he escaped, the assassination might be his ticket to glory in Cuba.Is that speculation? Sure, but's speculation consistent with the facts of Oswald's life and who those facts say he was.

Lance, thanks for the speculative take; good counterpoint.

Had no intention to imply that LHO could've ever, necessarily, articulated his JFKA motive - before or after the it. 

In an earlier post, I do think Ben did make a point:

"I sure hope the Mob did not have enough pull to direct LHO to Russia, then New Orleans, Mexico City to Dallas, and then suffocate real investigations into the JFKA three times--the WC, Garrison and the HSCA. And to prevent release of docs to this day.

I inferred from Ben's input taht the more likely entity with that much "pull" would, logically, be the CIA. 

The Mafia would have no JFKA "records", but the CIA, still has, 'aplenty - retained under the guise of "national security". 

Would we be privy to ALL those records, I would agree that even then, they perhaps, would still fail to provide a provable Oswald "articulated motive".  But just maybe, after thorough analyses/investigations of all of them, provide additional information to assist in being able to proffer a "derived Oswald motive" much closer to an actual much more desirable "articulated" motive- which could turn out to be the beginning of finally being able, to conclude without question, as to who was the "real" LHO.

Just release ALL the records - and maybe, no more controversy.

 

[James DiEugenio]

18 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Ben- I followed-up with Ernst Titovets with specific questions about Oswald, particularly on his Russian language abilities and if he had any formal training. I also asked him to account how the CIA translator in Mexico City would have said that the person saying he was Oswald spoke terrible Russian. I did not get back satisfactory answers on the language question and he declined to comment about Mexico City. I was hopeful that Ernst might have a genuine new insights into Oswald. As a lawyer, I often have to evaluate the truthfulness of witness accounts. My brief encounter with Ernst was disappointing and I now doubt the veracity of much of what he has written.  And nothing he has said contradicts that the theory that someone could have been manipulating the spy wanabe Lee Oswald into appearing to be a pro-Castro sympathizer  as opposed to being an actual Castro supporter.       

This is really uncalled for I think.

I spoke to Titovets in Washington back in 2014 and he was very forthcoming.

I asked him about the language issue.  He said that  Oswald spoke good Russian when he met him, no qualifications.  This indicates that the line that Gregory has been peddling is BS.  Because Rosaleen Quinn said that Oswald could put together full sentence on the spot.  Quinn met Oswald before he went to Russia, Titovets after.  

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by James DiEugenio