Which Howard Brennan Does the WC Supporters Believe ?

[Joe Bauer]

A couple of questions:

You say Oswald left his jacket at the TSCBD when he left to go back to his room?

"A couple of problems with your timeline. We have footage of a lot of Oswald's co-workers in the aftermath of the shooting. It appears they all put their shirts back on at lunch. Oswald undoubtedly came down for lunch. So he would have put his shirt back on at that time. He couldn't have put it on later because he never returned to the domino room after encountering Baker and Truly.

>>>>> He did leave his jacket there, after all. <<<<<

So he must have put it on when he first came down at lunch...when he spoke with Piper. "

 

Did Buell Wesley Frazier testify that when he took Oswald to their workplace that morning, that Oswald was wearing a jacket? Or, was Oswald simply wearing a shirt and no jacket?

Just read the following WC testimony of Wesley Frazier:

Mr. FRAZIER - He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so I followed him in.

Wasn't it nippy cold that morning? Maybe even drizzly overcast grey?

If Oswald was wearing a jacket to work and left without it, was it found later in the TXSCB?

Also, Oswald kept another jacket back in his room?

Another short waisted ( Eisenhower) style one?

And Oswald was wearing this jacket when he supposedly shot Tippet?

Then Oswald tosses the jacket as he runs away from the shooting scene?

One assumes he tossed the jacket thinking he would be too easily noticed by the cops if he wore this? Knowing that witnesses to him shooting Tippit would have seen him in the jacket and tell the police this in their description of the shooter?

The tossed jacket is soon found by the police however?

Did the cuff sleeves of the jacket show gun powder residue? After firing a revolver 4 times with a hand next to the sleeve, you would think there would be some...yes?

Edited February 3, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Ege]

22 hours ago, Gil Jesus said:

IMO, Brennan never saw Oswald in the window. He saw the man with the rifle, but it wasn't Oswald. He knew that when he viewed the lineup and because he feared that he was the only witness, he knew the real shooter was still at large. So he stopped short of falsely identifying Oswald, saying only that Oswald "most resembled" the man he saw.

Of course, Oswald was in a lineup with three police employees who didn't match his descritpion or the description of the man seen by witnesses.

Once Oswald was dead and he knew he wasn't going to send an innocent man to the chair, Brennan identified Oswald as the man he saw. This closed the book on him and kept him safe from the possibility that the real shooter would come after him.

I find it humorous that cardboard boxes could be mistaken for the shooter's "khaki" clothing. Were they button-down boxes ? What "explanation" will they come up with next ?

Gil, thank you.  Couldn't agree more.

I'll bet that others have thought the same thing, for quite a while now.

And more than likely, Brennan was not the only witness in the JFKA assassination scenario - who had self-preservation in mind.

[Gerry Down]

2 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

And more than likely, Brennan was not the only witness in the JFKA assassination scenario - who had self-preservation in mind.

Yeah, most people in Dealey Plaza never came forward. Probably worried they might be killed.

[Ron Ege]

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

Yeah, most people in Dealey Plaza never came forward. Probably worried they might be killed.

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Ron Ege

[Ron Ege]

🤗

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

I don't put this in the "undoubtedly" category. He may have come down, but I think it's far from undoubted he ate lunch.

How do we know this?

At least in my mind, "sports shirt" is most commonly associated with short-sleeves. Plug "sports shirt" into Google Images and all you get are short-sleeved shirts. The dictionary definition is "a long- or short-sleeved soft shirt for informal wear by men."

I believe it's impossible to reconcile all the discrepancies in what took place inside the TSBD. I simply try to think through what seems to be the most plausible scenario. If we give credence to everyone, we end up in a hopeless morass of confusion - which is why this is the standard defense-counsel strategy.

As far as Oswald's having come downstairs, I say he was undoubtedly downstairs because a number of witnesses saw him downstairs and because Williams failed to see him upstairs when he arrived on the sixth floor. 

As far as his not returning to the domino room... To go to the Domino room after encountering Baker and Truly, Oswald would have went to the stairs in the NW corner. Instead, he went towards the front of the building, as witnessed by Mrs. Reid. It only makes sense, moreover, that he would have picked up his jacket along with his shirt, should he have circled back to the domino room to pick up his shirt. 

As far as sports shirt.... Check that link I posted. Long-sleeved shirt after long-sleeved shirt is listed as a sports shirt, even today. In looking back through old articles and magazines, sport shirts were shirts that could not be considered "dress shirts." IOW, they were not shirts one would wear with a suit and tie. I would suspect they could be long or short sleeved, but the fact is that none of the witnesses said anything about seeing the arms of the shooter. So we can presume those claiming he was wearing a sport shirt were specifying that he was not wearing a t-shirt. 

When I fought with the archives and pressured them into supplying me with color pictures of the buttoned-down shirt Oswald said he was wearing, FWIW, I asked them to send me photos of a shirt which the FBI described as a sport shirt and Marina described as pajamas. 

Here it is: 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Pat Speer

[Joe Bauer]

Did the lady on the bus say Oswald was carrying a jacket with him?

Oswald simply left the jacket Frazier stated he was wearing that morning at the TXSBD?

Someone must have found Oswald's left behind jacket later...yes?

And of course many Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses never came forward.

Out of fear and not wanting to go through the stressful process of police interviews and maybe even hounding by the press?

[Pat Speer]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Did the lady on the bus say Oswald was carrying a jacket with him?

Oswald simply left the jacket Frazier stated he was wearing that morning at the TXSBD?

Someone must have found Oswald's left behind jacket later...yes?

And of course many Dealey Plaza eyewitnesses never came forward.

Out of fear and not wanting to go through the stressful process of police interviews and maybe even hounding by the press?

Mary Bledsoe said Oswald was not wearing a jacket when she saw him on the bus. So it would appear he left the jacket at work. 

Sure enough, a week or two later, someone realized that a jacket sitting on the ledge in the domino room was Oswald's jacket. This was discovered by an employee, not by a dogged FBI trying to reconcile that Frazier had said Oswald went to work in a jacket, and that Bledsoe had said he was not wearing a jacket. 

This is one of the reasons I put little stock in the "no one found curtain rods in the TSBD" blather. The DPD and FBI failed to recover Oswald's jacket and clipboard until it was handed to them. So what else was missed? 

 

[Guest]

On 2/3/2023 at 12:15 PM, Pat Speer said:

As far as Oswald's having come downstairs, I say he was undoubtedly downstairs because a number of witnesses saw him downstairs and because Williams failed to see him upstairs when he arrived on the sixth floor. 

As far as his not returning to the domino room... To go to the Domino room after encountering Baker and Truly, Oswald would have went to the stairs in the NW corner. Instead, he went towards the front of the building, as witnessed by Mrs. Reid. It only makes sense, moreover, that he would have picked up his jacket along with his shirt, should he have circled back to the domino room to pick up his shirt. 

As far as sports shirt.... Check that link I posted. Long-sleeved shirt after long-sleeved shirt is listed as a sports shirt, even today. In looking back through old articles and magazines, sport shirts were long-sleeved shirts that could not be considered "dress shirts." 

When I fought with the archives and pressured them into supplying me with color pictures of the buttoned-down shirt Oswald said he was wearing, FWIW, I asked them to send me photos of a shirt which the FBI described as a sport shirt and Marina described as pajamas. 

Here it is: 

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Joe Bauer]

13 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Mary Bledsoe said Oswald was not wearing a jacket when she saw him on the bus. So it would appear he left the jacket at work. 

Sure enough, a week or two later, someone realized that a jacket sitting on the ledge in the domino room was Oswald's jacket. This was discovered by an employee, not by a dogged FBI trying to reconcile that Frazier had said Oswald went to work in a jacket, and that Bledsoe had said he was not wearing a jacket. 

This is one of the reasons I put little stock in the "no one found curtain rods in the TSBD" blather. The DPD and FBI failed to recover Oswald's jacket and clipboard until it was handed to them. So what else was missed? 

 

EXACTLY!

 

[David Von Pein]

4 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I put little stock in the "no one found curtain rods in the TSBD" blather. The DPD and FBI failed to recover Oswald's jacket and clipboard until it was handed to them. So what else was missed? 

But if there had REALLY been any curtain rods (i.e., if Oswald really had rods in his large package on 11/22), then Oswald would (of course) have told the police that fact after he was in custody. That only stands to reason. But he didn't do that. Instead, he denied all knowledge of any curtain rods.*

* Yes, I know CTers will insist that I'm supposed to believe that Captain Fritz was the "real li@r" in this regard....but IMO that solution is just not a reasonable one. Certainly not as reasonable or realistic as having the accused assassin being the one telling the police tall tales. Plus, it's not ONLY Fritz we'd have to call a li@r here. It's other people too--like Jim Bookhout of the FBI and Thomas Kelley of the Secret Service:

"He [LHO] denied telling Wesley Frazier that the purpose of his visit to Irving, Texas, on the night of November 21, 1963, was to obtain some curtain rods from Mrs. Ruth Paine." -- James W. Bookhout; 11/23/63 FBI Report

----------

"In response to questions put by Captain Fritz, Oswald...denied that he brought a package to work on that day and he denied that he had ever had any conversation about curtain rods with the boy named Wesley who drove him to his employment." -- Thomas J. Kelley; WCR, Page 626

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Greg Doudna]

12 hours ago, Greg Doudna said:

The encounter with Mrs. Reid happened just after the encounter with Baker ... Oswald, who had come up from the first floor SE stairwell intending to cross over and down the NW stairway [as part of] an intended evasive exit of the building but saw Baker through the NW door window and backed up but not quickly enough to avoid catching Baker's eye ... after that encounter as part of evasiveness he takes off his gray jacket (that Baker remembered as a "light brown" or tan jacket), took off his maroon shirt, stuffed them both under his white T-shirt and in his pants, and walked by Mrs. Reid and went back down the SE stairwell the way he had come up. Mrs. Reid also says she saw Oswald with a coke. Although Oswald had been up there earlier before the parade getting a coke for his lunch, this time he was not there for a coke, but when confronted by Baker that's what he said he was there for. So after that confrontation to make his claim consistent he did buy a coke and carried it past Mrs. Reid ... I'm not totally serious here. The far-fetched attempt is prompted by a serious puzzle over the white T-shirt witness claim though. She said that within a day or so of the assassination? Seems clear and specific? Just puzzling.

Please someone humor me here and give back a serious reason for excluding the above as an explanation for how Oswald could be seen wearing a "light brown jacket" in the second floor lunchroom by officer Marrion Baker and then, only moments later, seen by Mrs. Reid walking by her desk in the main office area, coke in hand, wearing a white T-shirt. 

This discrepancy is not easily explained by witness error on the part of one of the witnesses on color of that magnitude. Both of these witness reports were in Baker's case same-day, and in Mrs. Reid's case I believe next day, i.e. timely. Both witnesses are credible.  

FACT: what Marrion Baker saw Oswald wearing was not a "brown jacket", but a "light brown jacket". Big difference. A light brown jacket is other language for a tan jacket, and a tan color is the color there is plenty of evidence witnesses called a gray colored jacket. And Oswald had a gray jacket, and Oswald had a gray jacket that morning, according to 100 percent of witnesses who spoke to the color of jacket Oswald wore that morning. Not a single witness claimed to see Oswald in a blue jacket that morning in Irving or at the TSBD later that morning. Buell Wesley Frazier, very credible, in close contact with Oswald in his car going both ways from Dallas to Irving, was categorical that Oswald was wearing his gray jacket, the same gray jacket Frazier said Oswald wore all the time and that Oswald's gray jacket was not, repeat not, the near-white tannish-colored (light gray?) jacket abandoned by the Tippit killer near the alley in Oak Cliff. Oswald did have a heavier, warmer blue jacket but no witness claimed to have seen that on Oswald whether in Irving or at the TSBD the morning of the assassination.  

CONCLUSION: What Marrion Baker saw had two features in its description: "jacket", and "light brown" (not brown). And the jacket Oswald was multiply witnessed wearing that morning was gray. That jacket Oswald had that morning--a gray jacket, the one Oswald was witnessed wearing that morning--MUST be what officer Baker saw. He saw Oswald's gray jacket. It is the best match to a plausible witness color description between the three items of upper-body clothing Oswald had that morning, the other two of which were not jackets. All that has to be supposed is that Baker got it right that it was a jacket, and got it almost right on the color, seeing or calling gray as tan ("light brown"). A slight miss by Baker on the color but not much, not as much as it has seemed.

FACT: Moments later Mrs. Reid, also credible witness, professional, office manager, says Oswald in a white T-shirt walking by her.

CONCLUSION: On the strength of the credibility of Mrs. Reid as a witness, as disconcerting as it may seem, consider that Oswald was wearing a white T-shirt, moments after he was wearing his shirt and gray jacket over his white T-shirt.

FACT: Oswald was acting evasively from almost immediately after the assassination straight through to his arrest in the Theatre in Oak Cliff. Evasion, as if he fears being followed, feint wrong place and direction at dropoff to a cabbie; change of clothing at the rooming house; feint wrong direction at a bus stop for the benefit of the eyes of housekeeper Earlene Roberts, then out of her sight taking a bus the opposite direction south to the Theatre... evasive.

THEREFORE: it is known Oswald changed his clothing once, and it would be in keeping with that known behavior if Oswald were to change his clothing appearance just prior to leaving the second-floor lunchroom to walk by Mrs. Reid. And based on the two both-credible witnesses of Oswald's upper-body wear only moments apart, it prima facie appears he did change upper-body wear. (Unless one of those two witnesses were wholly mistaken.)

IS THAT PLAUSIBLE? This is where I was stopped before and said I wasn't totally serious, because I had difficulty imagining the logistics of stuffing both a jacket and a shirt in one's pants leaving only the white T-shirt. 

Well, I decided to check on myself, see how I would do that if I were wearing a light fleece jacket, a shirt, and a T-shirt underneath, and wanted to be seen only in the T-shirt. (And although Oswald's blue jacket, the one nobody ever saw either on or off Oswald that morning at the TSBD, the one he changed into at Beckley in Oak Cliff and went to the Theatre in, was heavier and warmer, what people such as housekeeper Earlene would more call a "coat", Oswald's gray jacket was described by all witnesses as lightweight.)

I found: (a) it is not possible to stuff the jacket inside my pants. (b) it is extremely easy to stuff a long-sleeved dress shirt into my pants (loose-fitting comfortable light work pants) unnoticeably. Wadded-up shirt, right straight down the front in the front crotch. Open the belt and zipper, stuff the shirt, adjust and spread it out a little, zip back up over it and belt buckle again, good to go. (c) what then to do with the jacket? That would go tied by the arms of the jacket around the waist, all now hanging outside the waist down lower-body, none of it upper-body. 

Can be done quickly. All that needs to be supposed is Mrs. Reid (who wasn't observing particularly carefully but the white T-shirt couldn't be missed) missed noticing Oswald had his gray jacket (matching color to gray pants) wrapped around his waist below the level of the white T-shirt. He was wearing a white T-shirt, she remembered that, that was true. 

CLOSING QUESTION: is that or is that not a plausible explanation for those two seemingly irreconcilable, but both credible, witness testimonies moments apart as to what Oswald was wearing? 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Greg Doudna

[Gerry Down]

 

16 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

 taking a bus the opposite direction south to the Theatre.

What's your evidence Oswald took a bus to the Texas theatre? He had plenty time to get there on foot.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Gerry Down

[Greg Doudna]

16 minutes ago, Gerry Down said:

What's your evidence Oswald took a bus to the Texas theatre? He had plenty time to get there on foot.

Just reconstruction, the most efficient way to get there on the assumption that that is where he wanted to go. 

[Gerry Down]

1 minute ago, Greg Doudna said:

Just reconstruction, the most efficient way to get there on the assumption that that is where he wanted to go. 

Oh ok. I wonder if the library where a suspect was seen running into was the same library Oswald used frequent. The library would seem a more natural destination for Oswald rather than the theatre. To the best of my knowledge, the Texas theatre staff had never seen Oswald frequent there before.