Texas Theater: Fill in the blank!

[Paul Cummings]

34 minutes ago, Tom Gram said:

Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about Martino other than what was in SWHT, which I haven’t read in a while, but it looks like Bugliosi’s main criticism is that Oswald was never in Miami. That’s pretty reasonable, but is there any timeframe in 1963 where Oswald theoretically could have been in Miami? “Several weeks” before the assassination could easily stretch back into September. Oswald was unemployed at that time, so is it at all possible that he could have taken a weekend getaway with a few disreputable Cubans, or something like that? 

It just seems a bit odd that Martino would fabricate an easily disprovable elaborate story like that and ask that it not be published until after his death. Is there any actual evidence that Martino had dementia? The 1964 story trying to link Oswald to Cuban intelligence is equally curious, since Martino subsequently claimed it was an anti-Castro plot. 

If I'm not mistaken Marita Lorenz said she was with Oswald in September of 1963 while in Miami. Lorenz said she was with Fiorini/Sturgis at the time.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Paul Cummings

[Ron Ege]

5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

You don't think a nice dark movie theater would be a good place for a double-murderer who's on the run from the cops to hide for at least a little while? Why in the world not?

 

David, thanks.  I do understand your view.

I am just wondering if you have ever left the door open, at all, for Oswald's actions - other than above.

Most agree that he was not unintelligent.  So, for whatever reason, Oswald decided to assassinate the president, using his MC, from the TSBD sixth-floor window.

Witty enough to get his rifle into the building, dutifully assembled (at some point) and ready to go, he's all set - "sniper's lair" designed and assembled to keep away prying eyes.  Oswald must have realized that subsequent to his shots, there would be scores of folks offering ear and eye evidence as to where the shots came from - and that he would have a limited amount of time to make his departure, undetected, from the building - his escape plan eventually taking him to, wherever.

It just seems, based on the WR, that up to the moment the last shot is fired, Oswald had concocted a masterful plan to assassinate a POTUS, in broad daylight, with scores of witnesses in the immediate area.  His plan was so good that, miraculously, a few minutes later, he somehow avoided capture, moseying out of the TSBD. 

Subsequent to that moment (after hiding the rifle, of course), his every action seems to the opposite.  It's as if he's "making it up, on the run."  OK, throw in the coke buying nonchalance. But . . . 

Seemingly, he would have taken into account that he might have to "shoot his way out" of TSBD and having only one rifle round left, would he not have brought his .38 to work that day (or someday before, hiding it until needed) for backup, just in case?  Strange oversight, to say the least.

Assuming Oswald hoped/planned to make it out of the TSBD unnoticed, why would he not just have gone to the nearest theater, to lay low until the hullabaloo died down a bit.  Or better yet - just walked casually away, following whatever preplanned route he had that would take get him safely out of Dallas?

I can't get by Oswald NOT taking his .38 to the assassination but yet then going to his apartment (if he thinks he will be implicated, would that not be the first place the police would check?) to pick up the gun.  It just speaks of a guy who, ma-a-y-be, at that point, is grasping at straws, not sure of what has happened and/or how to react - but "better safe than sorry", he thinks.

The shooting of Tippit could be an explanation of the alleged TT scenario, but isn't that the point? 

I'm sure it follows for some, but just not for me.

Perhaps others, also? 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Ron Ege

[David Von Pein]

37 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

The shooting of Tippit could be an explanation of the alleged TT scenario, but isn't that the point? 

I'm sure it follows for some, but just not for me.

Perhaps others, also? 

IMO, Oswald's "Assassination Plan" (if we can call it that) has all the earmarks of being a virtually last-minute plan with no advanced thought at all of any escape plan. I think that's obvious by just examining the things he did on both Nov. 21 and 22.

I also think that Oswald himself truly felt (on Friday morning) that he very likely would have no real opportunity to pull off a successful assassination from anyplace within the Book Depository.

So many things could have interrupted his plan to shoot from any of the windows within the TSBD. But luck was certainly with him that day, no doubt about it, when Bonnie Ray Williams elected to vacate the sixth floor just in time for Oswald to accomplish his task on an empty 6th floor.

If only Bonnie Ray had decided to finish his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich on Floor #6. If he had done so, would tragedy have been averted? I think so. (Apart from Bonnie Ray's tragic dental bill, that is.)

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by David Von Pein

[David G. Healy]

25 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

IMO, Oswald's "Assassination Plan" (if we can call it that) has all the earmarks of being a virtually last-minute plan with no advanced thought at all of any escape plan. I think that's obvious by just examining the things he did on both Nov. 21 and 22.

I also think that Oswald himself truly felt (on Friday morning) that he very likely would have no real opportunity to pull off a successful assassination from anyplace within the Book Depository.

So many things could have interrupted his plan to shoot from any of the windows within the TSBD. But luck was certainly with him that day, no doubt about it, when Bonnie Ray Williams elected to vacate the sixth floor just in time for Oswald to accomplish his task on an empty 6th floor.

If only Bonnie Ray had decided to finish his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich on Floor #6. If he had done so, would tragedy have been averted? I think so. (Apart from Bonnie Ray's tragic dental bill, that is.)

 

'earmarks,' 'so many things' and 'you think'.... brilliant!

[David Von Pein]

1 minute ago, David G. Healy said:

'earmarks,' 'so many things' and 'you think'.... brilliant!

Huh?? What's your complaint this time? Don't like those particular words for some reason?

 

[Cory Santos]

37 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

IMO, Oswald's "Assassination Plan" (if we can call it that) has all the earmarks of being a virtually last-minute plan with no advanced thought at all of any escape plan. I think that's obvious by just examining the things he did on both Nov. 21 and 22.

I also think that Oswald himself truly felt (on Friday morning) that he very likely would have no real opportunity to pull off a successful assassination from anyplace within the Book Depository.

So many things could have interrupted his plan to shoot from any of the windows within the TSBD. But luck was certainly with him that day, no doubt about it, when Bonnie Ray Williams elected to vacate the sixth floor just in time for Oswald to accomplish his task on an empty 6th floor.

If only Bonnie Ray had decided to finish his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich on Floor #6. If he had done so, would tragedy have been averted? I think so. (Apart from Bonnie Ray's tragic dental bill, that is.)

 

Curious, why did he not try to shoot Nixon?   His trip to Texas was in the papers.   Have you ever questioned that?

[Mark Ulrik]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

with no advanced thought at all

I've noticed a few occurrences of "advanced knowledge" and now also "advanced thought" in your posts today. Don't you mean "advance" (as in "advance payment" or "advance ticket sale")? I'm not a native English speaker, so perhaps I'm just going crazy here.

[Charles Blackmon]

Bonnie Ray said he was eating his sandwich on the 6th floor until between 12:15 and 12:20. Witnesses on the street observed two men, one with a rifle, moving about on the 6th floor at 12:15. So who is wrong, Bonnie Ray or the other witnesses?

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Bonnie Ray said he was eating his sandwich on the 6th floor until between 12:15 and 12:20. Witnesses on the street observed two men, one with a rifle, moving about on the 6th floor at 12:15. So who is wrong, Bonnie Ray or the other witnesses?

I think the theory is that Oswald was hanging out on the west side of the 6th floor waiting for Williams to leave and was observed in the SW window by Arnold Rowland. 

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Bonnie Ray said he was eating his sandwich on the 6th floor until between 12:15 and 12:20. Witnesses on the street observed two men, one with a rifle, moving about on the 6th floor at 12:15. So who is wrong, Bonnie Ray or the other witnesses?

Did Bonnie Ray own a watch?  Was he watching it closely at the time?  Did an attorney ever ask?  Witness(es) (?) on the ground seeing two men on the sixth floor seem more convincing.  Given BR's sketchy testimony.

[Guest]

On 2/13/2023 at 5:04 PM, David Von Pein said:

IMO, Oswald's "Assassination Plan" (if we can call it that) has all the earmarks of being a virtually last-minute plan with no advanced thought at all of any escape plan. I think that's obvious by just examining the things he did on both Nov. 21 and 22.

I also think that Oswald himself truly felt (on Friday morning) that he very likely would have no real opportunity to pull off a successful assassination from anyplace within the Book Depository.

So many things could have interrupted his plan to shoot from any of the windows within the TSBD. But luck was certainly with him that day, no doubt about it, when Bonnie Ray Williams elected to vacate the sixth floor just in time for Oswald to accomplish his task on an empty 6th floor.

If only Bonnie Ray had decided to finish his chicken-on-the-bone sandwich on Floor #6. If he had done so, would tragedy have been averted? I think so. (Apart from Bonnie Ray's tragic dental bill, that is.)

 

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

Bye

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Charles Blackmon]

9 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

I think the theory is that Oswald was hanging out on the west side of the 6th floor waiting for Williams to leave and was observed in the SW window by Arnold Rowland. 

Arnold Rowland claimed to see a man with a rifle about 12:15. But from his testimony he never fingered or even described Oswald.

 

r. SPECTER - Could you give us an estimate on his height?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.
Mr. SPECTER - Was he a white man or a Negro or what?
Mr. ROWLAND - Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER - What race was he then?
Mr. ROWLAND - I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.
Mr. SPECTER - And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; except that it was dark, probably black.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?
Mr. ROWLAND - It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

[David Von Pein]

14 hours ago, Mark Ulrik said:

I've noticed a few occurrences of "advanced knowledge" and now also "advanced thought" in your posts today. Don't you mean "advance" (as in "advance payment" or "advance ticket sale")? I'm not a native English speaker, so perhaps I'm just going crazy here.

I don't really see much difference, Mark. I think the two words can probably be used interchangeably.

It's similar to the words "full-size" and "full-sized". I'm never quite sure which one to use when I write out that word. I usually opt to put the D on the end. I think the D in there makes it more "fully accurate". But I could be wrong about that. 🙂

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Tom Gram]

5 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

Let's put on our most basic thinking caps, the ones we wore back in Miss Muffy's JFKA Kindergarten, and THINK:

1. You need Oswald dead before he talks. Elements of the DPD are on board. He survives the TSBD, his trip to the rooming house, his journey to the theater, his arrest, and two days in custody during which you parade him in front of the press. OK ...

2. You assign the task of eliminating Oswald to an erratic, two-bit nightclub owner. OK ...

3. You plan the entire elimination of Oswald around having the two-bit nightclub owner in place, even though he's at a Western Union a block away four minutes before the deed and the place you have chosen for the deed is exceedingly public with hordes of press and cameras. OK ...

4. You entrust the two-bit nightclub owner, whose only role is to eliminate Oswald, with details of the JFK assassination up to and including the involvement of LBJ. Compartmentalization is apparently not your forte. OK ...

5. Despite #1, you are desperately afraid Oswald will talk. You are not, however, afraid that the erratic, two-bit nightclub owner will talk.

THINK. None of this makes any sense from any perspective other than, "I don't care about facts or logic. I want a conspiracy, dammit!!!"

Now let’s put on our basic critical thinking caps, the ones we wore back in Mr. Duffy’s JFKA 101 class, and actually do some thinking:

1. You can’t predict what your fall guy is going to do after the assassination. Oswald is no idiot, and figures out immediately that he’s screwed. Something goes wrong and a cop gets killed, possibly even by Oswald himself, and Oswald makes his way to a public place and makes a scene by screaming “I’m not resisting arrest!”, which probably saves his life. 

2. You assign the job of whacking Oswald to a familiar mob associate that you have enough dirt on to leverage into doing whatever the hell you want. You threaten him and his family, but also promise him money, dreams of being a hero, and tell him he has cancer and won’t be around very long anyway. 

3. You plan the elimination of Oswald in an environment you have complete control over, establish an extremely simple yet believable cover story for Ruby, and either signal him from a DPD window or only move Oswald once he’s moved into place.

4. You don’t entrust Ruby with Jack-$h!t. Ruby has a brain and can figure out that he’s in Texas and that the guy who benefited most from the assassination is a Texan.

5. You’re confident enough in your leverage on Ruby and the fact that he effectively knows nothing that he won’t go blabbing right away. Ruby later starts giving indications that he can’t be trusted to stay quiet forever, so you send in a drug specialist to induce psychotomimetic symptoms and ruin his credibility.

This is the biggest problem I have with lone assassin thinking. Your five supposed paradoxes are only really paradoxes if the alleged conspirators had the problem solving and contingency planning abilities of a third grader.

The DPD alone fabricated evidence and successfully framed people all the time. Also, deceiving world governments and elite intelligence agencies was an average Tuesday for an agency like the CIA, but lone nut theorists would have us believe that a handful of genius-level professional sociopaths trained in every method of deception known to man wouldn’t have been able to fool the pubic or figure out how to move a guy across a street.