The CIA Watch List - Bombshell or Factoid?

[Guest]

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Gerry Down]

Very good analysis and one everyone should read.

I've been following Malcolm Blunts analysis on this and he makes a big deal about an OS file being set up on LHO instead of a 201 file. He gets very detailed talking about LHO docs being diverted through the office of mail logistics to the OS file. So you're saying that the HSCA report itself effectively explained all this - there was no 201 file set up when LHO defected because he was put on the HTLINGUAL watch list (and people on this watch list didn't have 201 files cos HTLINGUAL was so sensitive if I understand you correctly).

So why was an OS file created on LHO and why was he put on the HTLINGUAL watch list (after all, not every defector was put on the HTLINGUAL watch list I presume?)?

Could the reason be for both the OS file and the HTLINGUAL watch list be because LHO had drawn attention to himself by offering military secrets to the Russians? After all, he was not just an ordinary defector but one who was offering military secrets to the enemy.

[Bob Ness]

5 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

In my Lone Nut opinion, folks like Morley and Newman, and their sycophants like Di Eugenio, are agenda-driven hucksters who rely on sowing confusion by overwhelming the innocent with minutiae.

Just curious. Why do you put together a nicely formed argument and then lace it with insults at the end?

Maybe you should park the dimensia rants. Are the doors locked where you live? From the inside that is.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Bob Ness

[Denny Zartman]

Are the personal insults necessary?

First it's the constant general characterization of anyone who disagrees as "loons" and other derogatory terms. Now there are direct personal insults to other forum members by name.

I just don't understand why the moderators on this forum tolerate this kind of behavior. Is this really how we're expected to approach discussion here? By constantly insulting and demeaning the other side? Now by name? As I see it, this is not an argument in good faith. Calling someone an "agenda-driven huckster" and then expecting a genuine discussion as if the personal animus wasn't obvious is insulting. It's almost as if some people are on this forum not for honest discussion in good faith but rather with the sole purpose of actively trying to provoke responses from specific individuals. That, to me, seems like an agenda.

[Gerry Down]

The very fact an OS file was set up on LHO and the fact he brought attention to himself by offering military secrets to the soviets, shouldn't this have resulted in a 201 file being set up?

The opening post does not address this.

It seems to me that the hypothesis that LHO was being used as part of a mole hunt would explain why an OS file was set up but no 201 file. And so Blunt, Newman and Morley are on to something here.

[Tom Gram]

2 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

The very fact an OS file was set up on LHO and the fact he brought attention to himself by offering military secrets to the soviets, shouldn't this have resulted in a 201 file being set up?

The opening post does not address this.

It seems to me that the hypothesis that LHO was being used as part of a mole hunt would explain why an OS file was set up but no 201 file. And so Blunt, Newman and Morley are on to something here.

Here’s the official CIA response on why the OS was handling Oswald’s file. It’s full of equivocal language and doesn’t really answer the question:

It is believed that OS holdings on Lee Harvey Oswald began in 1959 with his travel to Russia during which he renounced his US citizenship. Oswald was in contact with the American Embassy in Moscow, and the Department of State prepared reports on these contacts. Most likely because of counterintelligence concerns, the Central Intelligence Agency was included in the distribution of these reports. In the beginning, this material was probably retained in the Defector’s file. As the number of documents on this person increased, a separate file was created to be the repository of information on the alleged American defector. There is a notation in the defectors file that a separate file exists on Oswald. 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=230475#relPageId=133

I thought that a separate file on Oswald in OS/SRS was created immediately, but I honestly don’t know. Is there any evidence that the early material on Oswald was maintained in a master OS defectors file? I’ve heard that incoming material on other defectors was always sent to the Soviet Russia division and Oswald was the lone exception - which according to Robert Gambino, OS/SRS would’ve had to arrange in advance by altering the standard dissemination path with OML - but I haven’t really looked into this stuff much myself. 

EDIT: That link also has a CIA description of the function of OS/SRS. It was a mole hunting unit - and they kept files on persons of counterintelligence interest, presumably in connection with the primary function of mole hunting. 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Steve Roe]

12 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

I find that all this cuts pretty decisively against the “false defector, CIA operative” narrative.

Lance that was an excellent post on the highly questionable "false or witting defector" theory. 

I'd like to add to that, Oswald was fighting his USMC "undesirable discharge" while in Russia. As we know he kept appealing it when he returned back to the States. Also, Oswald had to pay back his State Department loan of $400+, which he did. 

Apparently, the CIA or whatever Intelligence organization just couldn't find the time to help Oswald out in service to this country. 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Good report Lance and I think your analysis is likely correct. Regarding Morley, he must keep reporting on these major "new documents" in order to justify his continued carping about the "secret" files that are being withheld. 

[Guest]

On 2/5/2023 at 1:45 AM, Bob Ness said:

Just curious. Why do you put together a nicely formed argument and then lace it with insults at the end?

On 2/5/2023 at 6:34 AM, Denny Zartman said:

Are the personal insults necessary?

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

On 2/5/2023 at 6:46 AM, Gerry Down said:

The very fact an OS file was set up on LHO and the fact he brought attention to himself by offering military secrets to the soviets, shouldn't this have resulted in a 201 file being set up?

The opening post does not address this.

It seems to me that the hypothesis that LHO was being used as part of a mole hunt would explain why an OS file was set up but no 201 file. And so Blunt, Newman and Morley are on to something here.

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Guest]

Hi

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Gerry Down]

13 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

The OS also routinely kept files on defectors. 

I didn't know this. The impression I had from watching Blunts videos was that the OS file on LHO was a highly unique situation for a defector.

[Gerry Down]

19 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

We know that 201 files weren't created for those on the HT-LINGUAL Watch List. 

Was that a rule?

In other words there is no example of someone being put on the HTLINGUAL watch list and having a 201 file created on them?

[Guest]

On 2/5/2023 at 12:22 PM, Gerry Down said:

I didn't know this. The impression I had from watching Blunts videos was that the OS file on LHO was a highly unique situation for a defector.

On 2/5/2023 at 12:28 PM, Gerry Down said:

Was that a rule?

In other words there is no example of someone being put on the HTLINGUAL watch list and having a 201 file created on them?

Hi

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lance Payette

[Gerry Down]

11 minutes ago, Lance Payette said:

I don't want to get out over my skis, and I'm not the CIA Answer Man. The OS certainly investigated defectors to the U.S. https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/rockcomm/pdf/RockComm_Chap13_OtherInv.pdf. The document I linked above indicated some sort of compilation of defector information, and the one OS file on Oswald was labelled "Defectors." https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10336-10023.pdf. Beyond that, I have no idea.

The HSCA was told and confirmed that 201 files were not opened because of the ultra-secrecy and dubious legality (i.e., clear illegality) of HT-LINGUAL. Beyond that, I have no idea.

Thanks for your frankness. The impression I had got from your opening post was that 201 files were created for people on the HTLINGUAL program but that the data from the HTLINGUAL program was kept out of the persons 201 file and kept in another file for that person at counterintelligence.