So what's the story on Richard Case Nagell?

[Larry Hancock]

Anyone serious about this question need's to read Dick's books, he did a second one which explored some interesting possibilities including the fact that Hecksher was the CIA officer using Nagell in Mexico City.   I spent a fair amount of time on Nagell in SWHT but  you could pick up the key points from my blog posts:

https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/tagged/

https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2022/02/01/richard-case-nagell-revisited/

Per David's question, the CIA did certify that the names in Nagell's notebook were employees, two from California offices and one from HQ. 

As to the rest, while there are some fascinating things in the story  including Hecksher, who was in Mexico City, at the same time as Nagell and Nagell's abortive vist to the US Embassy in MC talking about defecting and sharing information with a foreign power, there is nothing concrete to establish that Nagell had any knowledge about the attack in Dallas (which is why he does not appear in Tipping Point), although he was prepared to offer information about anti-Castro exiles contacting Oswald and attempting to manipulate him with the contact being in New Orleans in late summer (that does appear in Tipping Point).  That in itself would have been explosive if it had gotten into the official assassination investigation, plenty of  reason to shuttle Nagell off the record and undermine his credibility.

As with anything related to the assassination, if you try to take Nagell too far you run into problems, if you minimize him totally you risk missing something important he might indeed have seen in New Orleans.

 

[Michael Crane]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

Michael,

I have a habit of holding onto any books I've read or even partly read. They serve as reference sources and as mementos of where I've travelled mentally. I see that The Man Who Knew Too Much is available from Amazon and isn't very expensive. It's also got good reviews there. It might be worth your while getting it from there as you might see a lot more in it than I saw.

John.

No problem John,I understand.

[Michael Crane]

52 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Anyone serious about this question need's to read Dick's books, he did a second one which explored some interesting possibilities including the fact that Hecksher was the CIA officer using Nagell in Mexico City.   I spent a fair amount of time on Nagell in SWHT but  you could pick up the key points from my blog posts:

https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2013/10/18/tagged/

https://larryhancock.wordpress.com/2022/02/01/richard-case-nagell-revisited/

Per David's question, the CIA did certify that the names in Nagell's notebook were employees, two from California offices and one from HQ. 

As to the rest, while there are some fascinating things in the story  including Hecksher, who was in Mexico City, at the same time as Nagell and Nagell's abortive vist to the US Embassy in MC talking about defecting and sharing information with a foreign power, there is nothing concrete to establish that Nagell had any knowledge about the attack in Dallas (which is why he does not appear in Tipping Point), although he was prepared to offer information about anti-Castro exiles contacting Oswald and attempting to manipulate him with the contact being in New Orleans in late summer (that does appear in Tipping Point).  That in itself would have been explosive if it had gotten into the official assassination investigation, plenty of  reason to shuttle Nagell off the record and undermine his credibility.

As with anything related to the assassination, if you try to take Nagell too far you run into problems, if you minimize him totally you risk missing something important he might indeed have seen in New Orleans.

 

Larry,

I went to download the interview with you & Bob Wilson on Nagell & I am pretty sure that I got an error message while trying.

I also tried "play in a new window" and was unsuccessful.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Larry Hancock]

I do know Chuck is having problems with his server this week (his primary computer crashed) so that may explain the problem with streaming the interview.  The good news is that the blog posts themselves really should give you all the basics about what I know - or have to say (grin) at this point about the relevance of Nagell to the Dallas conspiracy.  If not I can respond to questions here.

[Dan Rice]

43 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

Larry,

I went to download the interview with you & Bob Wilson on Nagell & I am pretty sure that I got an error message while trying.

I also tried "play in a new window" and was unsuccessful.

deleted

Edited March 8, 2023 by Dan Rice

[John Cotter]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

From what I read, Nagell had bona fide credentials as an Army counter-intel officer in the late 1950s. Perhaps in that capacity he came across a few phone numbers. 

Then he began working for the State of CA employment department, and then the CA Alcohol Beverage Control team.

Were they "cover" jobs---or just jobs he could get on the strength of his service record and people trying to help him out? Who knows?

Perhaps Nagell approached the CIA in 1963 with plausible stories regarding Cuban exiles, and the CIA put some agents on it--who gave Nagell their phone numbers.

The CIA had literally thousands of human assets stateside in the 1960s, due to the Cuban situation. Maybe Nagell was one of those assets, but sadly, he may have been having mental problems also. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, Benjamin, it might be worth considering that the diabolical entities with whom Nagell was involved – the CIA and its henchmen – probably had ways of destroying the mental health of employees who displayed signs of “job dissatisfaction”.

Edited March 8, 2023 by John Cotter

[Jonathan Cohen]

15 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

On the other hand, Benjamin, it might be worth considering that the diabolical entities with whom Nagell was involved – the CIA and its henchmen – probably had ways of destroying the mental health of employees who displayed signs of “job dissatisfaction”.

Nagell was suffering from mental issues due to a brain injury long before he ever allegedly got embroiled with "the CIA and its henchmen" ... and there is no hard evidence he was ever an "employee" of said agency.

[John Cotter]

3 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Nagell was suffering from mental issues due to a brain injury long before he ever allegedly got embroiled with "the CIA and its henchmen" ... and there is no hard evidence he was ever an "employee" of said agency.

What and when was the brain injury, and what evidence is there that the brain injury caused “mental health issues”?

Is there any “soft” evidence of Nagell having an association with the CIA?

Edited March 8, 2023 by John Cotter

[Jonathan Cohen]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

What and when was the brain injury, and what evidence is there that the brain injury caused “mental health issues”?

Is there any “soft” evidence of Nagell having an association with the CIA?

This is covered extensively in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" and in blog posts such as this. Nagell was in a plane crash in 1954 while in the Army and was never the same afterwards.

Soft evidence? Depends on what you believe. Nagell himself claimed even HE didn't know which agency he was allegedly working for and that he in effect became a 'double agent" when he was ordered by a foreign power to kill Oswald but refused. I personally don't believe that ever happened.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Jonathan Cohen

[John Cotter]

36 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

This is covered extensively in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" and in blog posts such as this. Nagell was in a plane crash in 1954 while in the Army and was never the same afterwards.

Soft evidence? Depends on what you believe. Nagell himself claimed even HE didn't know which agency he was allegedly working for and that he in effect became a 'double agent" when he was ordered by a foreign power to kill Oswald but refused. I personally don't believe that ever happened.

Thanks for that informative reply, Jonathan.

[Matthew Koch]

27 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Thanks for that informative reply, Jonathan.

Nagell didn't write the book, Dick Russel did so Jonathan's ad homs are against the author because he's implying that Dick Russell just swallowed the bait and didn't do any research. I think the book is important because it shows what Garrison had to deal with and imo it shows that the plot is much bigger than what a lot of researchers think it is. While there is a lot of lore about Nagell there is obviously some fire and it's not all smoke. John you probably have a first addition book which is harder to read than the later additions because Russell took out alot of 101 JFKA info out of the later addition to make it easier to read. 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

5 hours ago, John Cotter said:

On the other hand, Benjamin, it might be worth considering that the diabolical entities with whom Nagell was involved – the CIA and its henchmen – probably had ways of destroying the mental health of employees who displayed signs of “job dissatisfaction”.

I agree with your sentiments, especially since so many people in and around the JFKA tended to die or develop mental troubles. 

It may also be the intel agencies actually used mental unstable people for some assignments, which would give them plausible deniability if the assets were caught or exposed. 

Given Nagell's mental condition, would other authorities or the media trust anything he said? 

That still leaves us JFKA'ers at a dead end. Since Nagell is unreliable on some facts...we are stuck. 

It is the same when the FBI or whoever destroys evidence. Since we are not sure what the evidence actually showed, we get stuck. We can conjecture....

But...there is wheat out there, and not chaff. 

 

[John Cotter]

49 minutes ago, Matthew Koch said:

Nagell didn't write the book, Dick Russel did so Jonathan's ad homs are against the author because he's implying that Dick Russell just swallowed the bait and didn't do any research. I think the book is important because it shows what Garrison had to deal with and imo it shows that the plot is much bigger than what a lot of researchers think it is. While there is a lot of lore about Nagell there is obviously some fire and it's not all smoke. John you probably have a first addition book which is harder to read than the later additions because Russell took out alot of 101 JFKA info out of the later addition to make it easier to read. 

 

Matthew,

I defer to your greater knowledge and grasp of detail on this subject. I have a degree in history but I was never strong on details, dates and the nitty gritty stuff. I made up for it with an aptitude for discerning patterns, themes and the more “holistic” stuff.

The copy of The Man Who Knew Too Much that I have is the 1992 edition, which is 824 pages in length (including Notes and Index). It’s a pity I didn’t get one of the later, shorter editions you mention, as I might have found it more amenable to my way of thinking. Perhaps @Michael Crane would be of a similar disposition.

[David Von Pein]

A portion of Vince Bugliosi's look at Richard Case Nagell:

https://groups.google.com/g/alt.conspiracy.jfk/c/MCFh-s3yh1o/m/S48-OGfmdQ4J

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by David Von Pein

[Jonathan Cohen]

22 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Nagell didn't write the book, Dick Russel did so Jonathan's ad homs are against the author because he's implying that Dick Russell just swallowed the bait and didn't do any research.

And as usual, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. I never claimed Nagell wrote the book. I also never said a word about Russell’s research methodology. Stop putting words in my mouth.