Paul Bacon Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 32 minutes ago, W. Niederhut said: Are you suggesting that we have no meaningful role to play in mitigating the Israeli/Palestinian conflict-- including the prevention of war crimes? Of course we do William. And from what I've heard and seen that's exactly what our administration has been trying to accomplish. Netanyahu is his own man and bombing and invading is, politcally, what he thinks needs doing. Biden even said Israel should not make the same mistake we did after 9/11. In my view, the administration has been masterful in the last two weeks. This is a trainwreck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Paul Bacon said: Of course we do William. And from what I've heard and seen that's exactly what our administration has been trying to accomplish. Netanyahu is his own man and bombing and invading is, politcally, what he thinks needs doing. Biden even said Israel should not make the same mistake we did after 9/11. In my view, the administration has been masterful in the last two weeks. This is a trainwreck! Pat, Indeed. And it's a train wreck that could escalate into WWIII. The planet's 1+ billion Muslims are enraged by the bombing of besieged civilians in Gaza. U.S. troops have been attacked in Iraq, and a mob tried to burn our embassy in Beirut. Israel is threatening to bomb Iran, and China is, reportedly, sending war ships to the Middle East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) Actually I've always thought Ralph Nader was a great man. My Dad, my brother and I voted for him in 2000. It was a mistake though my brother still doesn't think so. The only excuse I have is that I'm from California, which was always going to go for Gore anyway. But he did ensure that Bush won in Florida and so won the election. But he had no way of knowing that. I actually met him once in a plane and he was very gracious. W. I did think the Nader article was better than the Plitkin article but I find do find some fault in both of them. Nader:Did Biden get Israel and Egypt to allow the exit of hundreds of American citizens fleeing the Gazan firestorm? No! Nader:Did Biden open up corridors for humanitarian aid to the babies, children, women, elderly and other civilians in Gaza who had nothing to do with the October 7th Hamas homicide/suicide attack on Israelis? No! I'd ask Ralph if he's prepared to put American troops on the ground? I'd say his answer is no. So the answer to both of these questions is also no. It's because Biden can't. Nader: He could have done what President Eisenhower did in 1956, when he demanded that the Israeli, British and French attack on Egypt stop immediately. And stop, they did! Yeah, those were the good old days! No he couldn't. Under what threat could the U.S. do that now? Nobody here wants U.S. boots on the ground in Gaza! Nader:To the contrary, earlier in the week he cruelly ordered his UN Ambassador to veto a widely supported resolution calling for a humanitarian ceasefire. I think that's the key. There has to be a ceasefire and then negotiation for hostages. I could see Nader saying that we have a closing window to make that appeal. And that's where I agree with W. We have to stop funding Israel for anything other than humanitarian assistance, and pursuing peace. As i said , they've already doubled the body count they've lost and created much more destruction. It's time for a ceasefire, and a negotiation of hostages. Plitnick: Biden has managed perhaps the most spectacular failure of policy in Palestine and Israel in U.S. history. That's very naive to say. The sort of mistake Biden made by not being more of an activist for the Palestinians, and employing a policy of "no news is good news" up to a couple of weeks ago would have been made by every U.S. President. And dare I say, JFK included. At any rate, I don't think it's a "spectacular failure", though the event itself was spectacular. Biden in Israel "As hard as it is, we cannot give up on peace. We cannot give up on a two-state solution,” the President said. Biden:“But I caution this: While you feel that rage, don’t be consumed by it. After 9/11, we were enraged in the United States. While we sought justice and got justice, we also made mistakes.” I don't think Plitnick even mentioned Biden talking of 2 state solution, or "mistakes" did he?. Which required some guts as I'm sure this is the least likely time in our lives to mention a 2 state solution in Israel and have a general public sympathy for it.( Though I know there's some, millions of people in the country, over the years have had marches for a solution) ) Of course Plitnick would probably be skeptical it was anything more than talk and he' may be right. They definitely need more than 20 truckloads there! But we don't know what Biden is really doing. Plitkin's criticizing Biden for suggesting Egypt, Jordan the Saudis take in Gazan refugees. But the truth is nobody wants their countries to be like Lebanon with huge permanent Palestinian camps. Nobody is keen on taking in more refugees in that part of the globe, particularly after we f-ucked up the refugee situation so horribly with our Iraq War. I'm not a big Tom Friedman fan , but I at least like his idealism here. Friedman: I believe that if Israel rushes headlong into Gaza now to destroy Hamas — and does so without expressing a clear commitment to seek a two-state solution with the Palestinian Authority and end Jewish settlements deep in the West Bank — it will be making a grave mistake that will be devastating for Israeli interests and American interests. I like that's he's proposing a solution, but is it really realistic if we're depending on Israel to come to that conclusion? It's going to require Biden really being engaged and making a persistent effort with carrot and stick diplomacy over a period of time. But I agree with Friedman here that if we don't go for the brass ring and don't in the long run use our power and influence toward a long range greater good. This whole thing is just going to be disaster for Israel and us, which was maybe the idea all along. Can you imagine that Gazans are really that pleased with Hamas now that a lot of them have lost everything? Of course they can't like Israel for wreaking such destruction on them either! "Polls suggest that Palestinians are ready for a different order. In a July 2023 survey by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, half of those polled in Gaza agreed that “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution.” And 70 percent of Gazans favored the Palestinian Authority sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there.” https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/19/opinion/biden-speech-israel-gaza.html?campaign_id=39&emc=edit_ty_20231020&instance_id=105672&nl=opinion-today®i_id=61798350&segment_id=147850&te=1&user_id=48552702f942aacb0810b9de5ca41c55 At least it's something to shoot for. But my guess is if the present situation gets out of hand, Biden will suffer if Americans see their hostages sacrificed, and he has great incentive to not be in that position. Edited October 23, 2023 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 5 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: Your AP "fact check" about the St. Porphyrios Church bombing is dubious. It isn't dubious in the slightest. The church is untouched, fully intact. That was the 2nd time Hamas claimed it had been bombed, clearly trying to push a narrative to inflame tension between Israel and Christians. This stuff isn't difficult to see through. I don't like that Israel has taken land from Palestinians at all. Never have. I think Bibi is a crook and evil. But you're trying to make this into a situation that consists of only good guys on one side and bad guys on the other, and you're going to fail, because that's not what this is. This is two different religious groups that have ruthlessly slaughtered each other for centuries and it takes quite an ego to believe one man could turn around that situation. How about instead you realize that after failing with GOP-funded interlocutors to use 3rd party candidacies to cut into Biden's electoral support, which portends him clobbering Trump in a landslide, the MAGA/Kremlin has pivoted to a subject that often divides Dems and progressives: Israel and war. Once again, not a coincidence. And once again, the only person that has prevented this situation from immediately disintegrating? Joe Biden: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) duplicate; please delete Edited October 23, 2023 by Matt Allison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 5 hours ago, Paul Bacon said: In my view, the administration has been masterful in the last two weeks. And you would be 100% correct. It's been a PhD level class in diplomacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Matt Allison said: It isn't dubious in the slightest. The church is untouched, fully intact. Matt, Your misleading AP propaganda article is predicated on a semantic sleight-of-hand-- denying that the St. Porphyrios Church compound was hit by an Israeli missile. Go back and read WaPo's detailed, on-the-ground, descriptions of the attack on the St. Porphyrios Church compound (above) and the deaths caused by that Israeli missile attack on the church compound-- similar to the attacks by 6,000+ other Israeli missiles launched into residential neighborhoods in Gaza since October 7th. You should also read this article (below) by the Pulitzer Prize winning former New York Times Middle East correspondent, Chris Hedges, about Israel's history of systematically lying about their crimes against Palestinian civilians. As a long-time Middle East correspondent, Hedges' opinions are based on direct observation. Israel's Culture of Deceit, by Chris Hedges - The Unz Review October 18, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Matt Allison said: And you would be 100% correct. It's been a PhD level class in diplomacy. Nonsense, Matt. It's an epic foreign policy disaster for the U.S.-- with global ramifications. Perhaps you haven't been reading the international news this week-- about Iraqi attacks on U.S. troops, and a mob setting fire to the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. There was also the cancellation by officials in Jordan and Egypt of a scheduled meeting with Biden. This past week also witnessed the resignation of a senior U.S. State Department official, in response to Biden's misguided kowtowing to Netanyahu's war on the besieged civilian population of Gaza. Opinion | The Spectacular Failure of Biden's Middle East Policy | Common Dreams Edited October 23, 2023 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 A very quick and fascinating read on the connection between Michael Flynn and Trump to the current mess in Gaza: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1716164888282730842.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 - Sydney Powell - Donald Trump was NEVER my client. He was just some fat golfer that I met down in Mar-a-Lago once. heh heh Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 So Kenneth Chesboro worked with Lawrence Tribe in Bush Vs. Gore in 2000? So why the 180? He was always a workaholic but changed when he became a Crypto millionaire! https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/us/politics/chesebro-trump.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W. Niederhut Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) Obama is not quite ready to give Joe Biden a Ph.D. in diplomacy for supporting Operation Bomb-a-Baby-for-Bibi. Instead, Obama seems to agree with Bernie Sanders' and Ralph Nader's take on halting the genocide in Gaza (with less strident rhetoric than Nader.) Obama: Israeli military strategy ignoring human costs will 'backfire' Former president Barack Obama posted his thoughts on the conflict to Medium. He acknowledged that Palestinians are continuing to be displaced by a settler movement backed by Israeli policies, but he added that antisemitism and hate toward Palestinians and/or Arabs and Muslims cannot be tolerated. “The world is watching closely as events in the region unfold, and any Israeli military strategy that ignores the human costs could ultimately backfire,” he wrote. He said the Israeli government’s decision to cut off food, water and electricity to a captive civilian population could worsen a growing humanitarian crisis but also “further harden Palestinian attitudes for generations, erode global support for Israel, play into the hands of Israel’s enemies, and undermine long term efforts to achieve peace and stability in the region.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/israel-gaza-war-news-hamas/#link-7FLQEVS4E5BJFIE7GN3DBBW27A Edited October 24, 2023 by W. Niederhut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Allison Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 I must have missed the news about Joe Biden being elected President of Israel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Whew!, This 60 minutes Australian piece on Australian billionaire Anthony Pratt,who was the one who revealed Trump told him sensitive military secrets. Pratt "Trump says whateverTF he wants. Trump: "i just bombed Iraq today and the President of Iraq called me up and said, "You just bombed my city, and I said, What are you going go do about it?" Trump: "You know that Ukraine phone call? That's nothing compared to what I usually do!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted October 24, 2023 Author Share Posted October 24, 2023 9 hours ago, W. Niederhut said: Obama is not quite ready to give Joe Biden a Ph.D. in diplomacy for supporting Operation Bomb-a-Baby-for-Bibi. Obama said nothing different from what Biden believes and wants to accomplish. Plus, not only does Biden have to deal with civilians being killed, he has to deal with the possibility of the war spreading. Biden isn't God. There's only so much he can do. BTW, recall that the Israel-Hamas war is an American-Iran war by proxy. Biden doesn't want to display weakness (to Iran) by cutting off arms supplies to Israel. I think that Biden understands the situation far better than any of these armchair commanders-in-chief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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