D.P.U.K. Zoom with Robert & Janet Groden 25th March '23

[Pete Mellor]

The Zoom session with Robert & Janet Groden with Dealey Plaza U.K. from March 25th '23, is now available on D.P.U.K.'s You Tube channel here:-

The session is almost three and a half hours long, but covers Zapruder film and information on 'the other Zapruder film i.e.Spainhouer film + Oliver, Nix, Muchmore, L.H.O. Exhumation film, Pitzer, Arnold, L.H.O. in Parkland operating room and Similas photo.  Slow at times, but scanning fwd to get to the meaty bits helps.

[K K Lane]

Thanks for posting.

Can someone please share the current consensus in the research community about 1) Fred Spainhouer and 2) his alleged Zapruder-like film (2:13 into the video fwiw)?  At minimum, it's strange that he was detached from the Navy on 11/23/63.

[Jonathan Cohen]

8 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

The session is almost three and a half hours long, but covers Zapruder film and information on 'the other Zapruder film i.e.Spainhouer film + Oliver, Nix, Muchmore, L.H.O. Exhumation film, Pitzer, Arnold, L.H.O. in Parkland operating room and Similas photo.  Slow at times, but scanning fwd to get to the meaty bits helps.

I notice that the "Zapruder film is fake" cheerleaders on this forum get awfully quiet when Groden categorically refutes widespread alteration ...

[Bob Ness]

12 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

The Zoom session with Robert & Janet Groden with Dealey Plaza U.K. from March 25th '23, is now available on D.P.U.K.'s You Tube channel here:-

The session is almost three and a half hours long, but covers Zapruder film and information on 'the other Zapruder film i.e.Spainhouer film + Oliver, Nix, Muchmore, L.H.O. Exhumation film, Pitzer, Arnold, L.H.O. in Parkland operating room and Similas photo.  Slow at times, but scanning fwd to get to the meaty bits helps.

Hmmm. Interesting so far but he really should know what an F Stop is before he criticizes others about not knowing the difference between that and a bus stop. Big flop there. Also video cameras do use T Stops, the difference being how much light the sensor receives versus how much light the aperture opening allows (F Stop) to hit the film, not the camera. Waveform monitors and vector scopes are usually used in video to measure the light for production, but I used film spot meters all the time when I didn't have those. 

[Pete Mellor]

15 hours ago, K K Lane said:

Thanks for posting.

Can someone please share the current consensus in the research community about 1) Fred Spainhouer and 2) his alleged Zapruder-like film (2:13 into the video fwiw)?  At minimum, it's strange that he was detached from the Navy on 11/23/63.

K.K., Always a pleasure to update the Forum on what's happening in U.K.

I wasn't able to Zoom in on the original meet due to having a ticket for a Manchester United game.  So after my catch-up on You Tube there were a number of points that I thought researchers on this Forum may comment on.  The Spainhouer film along with daughter Chana's input a case in point.  Personally, I have never come across any serious discussion of this film.  Groden infers Spainhouer's position somewhere in the vicinity of the 'supposed Badgeman', he also infers the use of a heavy tripod.  The evidence is zilch.  No pictures or statements from witnesses to seeing anyone who could fit.  Unless all these figures disappeared into vehicle trunks in the GN parking area.

I also had never heard of Oswald's Parkland operating room being recorded on film.

[Pete Mellor]

10 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

I notice that the "Zapruder film is fake" cheerleaders on this forum get awfully quiet when Groden categorically refutes widespread alteration ...

Jonathan, I never post on "Zapruder film is fake" threads, although I do read.  I'm no film tech.  But, yes, there are a number of topics from Groden's Zoom presentation that I thought may provoke a response from researchers.

[Michael Crane]

Well,I'm only a little over 6 minutes in,and man...watching the movement of the black blob on the back of JFK's head is mesmerizing.

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Pete Mellor said:

Jonathan, I never post on "Zapruder film is fake" threads, although I do read.  I'm no film tech.  But, yes, there are a number of topics from Groden's Zoom presentation that I thought may provoke a response from researchers.

As with every single aspect of this case, Groden is problematic. The means by which he's acquired his collection over time are suspicious, as outlined in detail in David Lifton's essay "Pig on a Leash," and in recent years the quality of his research has been shoddy if not outright deceptive (ie., representing an unquestionably fake autopsy photo as a new discovery in his latest book). It's also unfortunate he now aligns himself with people such as Beverly Oliver and Judyth Baker, but that's another story ...

[Pete Mellor]

8 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

It's also unfortunate he now aligns himself with people such as Beverly Oliver and Judyth Baker, but that's another story ...

Indeed.  I question how Beverley, a nightclub singer at the time, got hold of a prototype Yashica Super 8 movie camera. All unexplained.  Maybe I should have asked her when we met in 2013.  I do have a photograph of Beverley giving me a hug and kiss at the Lancer conference in Dallas. 😃 

[Michael Griffith]

13 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

I notice that the "Zapruder film is fake" cheerleaders on this forum get awfully quiet when Groden categorically refutes widespread alteration ...

I think the case for alteration of the Zapruder film is powerful and compelling. There are events in the Zapruder film that could not have happened on this planet. 

I feel no need to respond to Groden because he is not a photographic expert. 

In any case, I wish Groden well. I hope he's in a good place. I met him in 2002/2003 when my wife and I visited Dealey Plaza to meet Jack White. Groden was selling his videos on a street corner in the plaza and did not look to be in good condition. He's done a lot for the JFK case, and I wish him all the best. 

[Michael Crane]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

Indeed.  I question how Beverley, a nightclub singer at the time, got hold of a prototype Yashica Super 8 movie camera. All unexplained.  Maybe I should have asked her when we met in 2013.  I do have a photograph of Beverley giving me a hug and kiss at the Lancer conference in Dallas. 😃 

She was a self admitted gold digger (at the time) and didn't pay attention to guys without money.

She said that she was introduced to Lee Harvey Oswald in Ruby's night club & since he wasn't in a suit and looked like he didn't have any money,that she did not pay any attention to him.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Michael Crane]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

Indeed.  I question how Beverley, a nightclub singer at the time, got hold of a prototype Yashica Super 8 movie camera. All unexplained.  Maybe I should have asked her when we met in 2013.  I do have a photograph of Beverley giving me a hug and kiss at the Lancer conference in Dallas. 😃 

Beverly received the camera as a gift from Larry Ronco Jr who was attached to Kodak in some capacity. 

[Pete Mellor]

48 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

Beverly received the camera as a gift from Larry Ronco Jr who was attached to Kodak in some capacity. 

OK Michael, that's interesting.

[Michael Crane]

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

OK Michael, that's interesting.

"Beverly Oliver was a seventeen year old singer at Abe Weinstein’s Colony Club in 1963. She knew Jack Ruby well, born in Chicago and named Jacob Rubenstein in 1911. Frequently she found herself at Jack's Carousel Club next to the Colony Club. Ruby taught Beverly to shoot a hand gun, and she knows why he pulled the trigger on Lee Harvey Oswald using his middle finger. It was not that Ruby’s trigger finger was maimed earlier. He used his middle finger to aim more accurately for his intended target."

"Larry Ronco, Jr. was a manager at Six Flags when Beverly sang there. They began dating, and spending a great deal of time together. Through his association with Kodak, Ronco gave Jack Ruby an experimental Yashica Super 8 Zoom Movie camera. Beverly explained that “experimental models came out two years prior” to the one made available to the general public for sale. Ronco later gave the same model camera as a gift to her. The first time she would use her camera was to film the motorcade of JFK passing through Dealey Plaza on November 22^nd, 1963. This footage would potentially be the greatest and most conclusive piece of evidence in solving the murder of the slain president."

Edited April 13, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Pete Mellor]

13 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

"Beverly Oliver was a seventeen year old singer at Abe Weinstein’s Colony Club in 1963. She knew Jack Ruby well, born in Chicago and named Jacob Rubenstein in 1911. Frequently she found herself at Jack's Carousel Club next to the Colony Club. Ruby taught Beverly to shoot a hand gun, and she knows why he pulled the trigger on Lee Harvey Oswald using his middle finger. It was not that Ruby’s trigger finger was maimed earlier. He used his middle finger to aim more accurately for his intended target."

"Larry Ronco, Jr. was a manager at Six Flags when Beverly sang there. They began dating, and spending a great deal of time together. Through his association with Kodak, Ronco gave Jack Ruby an experimental Yashica Super 8 Zoom Movie camera. Beverly explained that “experimental models came out two years prior” to the one made available to the general public for sale. Ronco later gave the same model camera as a gift to her. The first time she would use her camera was to film the motorcade of JFK passing through Dealey Plaza on November 22^nd, 1963. This footage would potentially be the greatest and most conclusive piece of evidence in solving the murder of the slain president."

Yes Michael, all this is contained in 'Nightmare in Dallas' and a photograph of Beverley & Larry Ronco too.  I have met & talked with Beverley for around an hour some years back.  My impression was she was sincere and truthful, going off body language.  Having said that, I would want to get Ronco to confirm.  Even then, at the end of the day, the alleged film is gone, so my take on this has always been that the whole story is another rabbit hole even if we believe Bev, or we don't.