Oliver Stone: "Putin is a great leader for his country."

[W. Niederhut]

26 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

@W. Niederhut, @Cliff Varnell and @Sandy Larsen,

We’ve debated this ad nauseam elsewhere, so I’ll be as brief as possible here.

Putin’s Realpolitik approach to foreign policy and – to some extent – to internal Russian politics has been elucidated by Professor John Mearsheimer among others. I find Mearsheimer’s analysis generally persuasive.

Putin’s ruthlessness in respect of internal Russian politics is probably best explained by the long list of “undesirable” foreign leaders assassinated or targeted for assassination off by the CIA down through the years.

https://brutalproof.net/2019/11/cias-assassination-list/

I remember reading somewhere about Che Guevara advising Fidel Castro that having an open society in Cuba would be suicidal in view of the USA’s policy of global dominance involving the assassination of “undesirable” foreign leaders, regime change and so on.

In view of all of this and the USA’s internal kleptocratic political regime – not to mention its being accessory to the assassinations of its own political leaders in the 1960s – I find moralistic finger-pointing at Russia by sanctimonious Americans and westerners generally quite sickening.

Hogwash, John.

You completely ducked the facts I posted about Putin's systematic murders of Russian journalists during the past 20 years, his transformation of the Russian media-- once again-- into a Soviet-style organ of state propaganda, and his transformation of Russia's fledgling post-Soviet democracy into a brutal totalitarian police state.

He has his critics thrown out of windows or sentenced to the Gulag.

Are you really blaming the United States for Putin's re-establishment of an FSB-backed dictatorship in the former Soviet Union?

Get a clue.

Putin is the KGB anti-Gorbachev-- the Yuri Andropov Institute graduate who has systematically rolled back perestroika and glasnost, and implemented the Dugin agenda of re-establishing the Soviet empire, as a totalitarian police state.

Have you studied the history of that process during the past quarter century?

It didn't have to happen that way.

It's true that the Russian people have had no meaningful experience with functional democracy, but Putin has taken them down a very dysfunctional road during the past quarter century -- rather than working constructively with the prosperous democracies of Western Europe and the U.S. to achieve constructive conviviality.

Your bizarre concepts of Eastern European attitudes toward Soviet and neo-Soviet imperialism need some serious reality-testing.

You continue to blather about the egregious threat of so-called "U.S. full spectrum dominance," while ducking my old question-- i.e., "Would you have preferred to live in East or West Germany in the post-WWII era?"

Study the history of the Marshall Plan, in comparison with the impoverished, oppressive Soviet Bloc dictatorships in post-WWII Eastern Europe.

Edited May 6, 2023 by W. Niederhut

[John Cotter]

Lads,

As Chris and I have said, all of this has already been debated to death elsewhere. I don’t have any more time or energy to go through it all again here with ye.

Since ye seem so outraged by the evil, evil Putin and the evil, evil Russians, and since ye seem to have so much time and energy to spend in these rehashed debates, do ye not think ye’d be better off going over to “stand with Ukraine”, put ye’re boots on the ground and bodies on the line.

They have a very hungry meat grinder there by all accounts.

[W. Niederhut]

4 minutes ago, John Cotter said:

Lads,

As Chris and I have said, all of this has already been debated to death elsewhere. I don’t have any more time or energy to go through it all again here with ye.

Since ye seem so outraged by the evil, evil Putin and the evil, evil Russians, and since ye seem to have so much time and energy to spend in these rehashed debates, do ye not think ye’d be better off going over to “stand with Ukraine”, put ye’re boots on the ground and bodies on the line.

They have a very hungry meat grinder there by all accounts.

Great point.  Why should we worry about silly, old, antiquarian concepts of "evil" -- i.e., the murders of journalists, opposition politicians, and Ukrainian civilians, etc.-- if we're not willing to strap on helmets and slog through the mud outside of Bakhmut in our late 60s?

It's just Realpolitik.

Kissinger proved in Cambodia that Realpolitik is simply the way things work.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

Since ye seem so outraged by the evil, evil Putin 

That you’re *not* outraged is telling — &sickening.

Run like a scalded cat, indeed.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[John Cotter]

Are ye still here? I thought ye'd be half way to Ukraine by now. Cowards!

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, John Cotter said:

Are ye still here? I thought ye'd be half way to Ukraine by now. Cowards!

Said the guy who called people out — then ran away when it got too hot.

[Kirk Gallaway]

2 hours ago, John Cotter said:

In view of all of this and the USA’s internal kleptocratic political regime – not to mention its being accessory to the assassinations of its own political leaders in the 1960s – I find moralistic finger-pointing at Russia by sanctimonious Americans and westerners generally quite sickening.

Nice one, John! 😄

Yeah , very cute, coming from you John. Do you know Ireland is the world's #1 tax haven stealing profits made from the U.S. from corporations like Apple and other tech companies and adding it to Ireland''s GDP?

Of course, maybe John''s bitterness is because he and the other everyday Irish people don't really see this great wealth but the Irish banks just use it for credit for their international dealings. Obviously John, like the everyday chump is scarcely aware of this and  actually is teasing us about the U.S. about being a kleptocracy.

So John's driven to conspiracy websites where he can muse from on high with very little detail and play the role of his esteemed "philosopher king" dealing out nuggets of wisdom.

Cush job, John.

[James DiEugenio]

Can someone explain to me the following:

What part of the original NATO Charter allowed for the bombing of Africa, i.e. Libya?

I would argue that the attack on Libya, that is what posed a danger to Europe.

In fact, Gaddafi actually told Blair that these guys are not rebelling against me, they are Al Qaeda.  And if they overthrow me, they will attack Europe.

Which is what happened.

HRC was one of the worst Secretaries of State in recent memory.  She is a prefect example of the Neocons taking over the Democratic Party. And John Stewart has her on with Condi Rice.  Mr Liberal hosts two war criminals and throws them softballs.

Please.  Kennedy's foreign policy was deliberately destroyed by LBJ and RMN.   ANd that paved the way for the  Neocons to take over.   After all, Kissinger was too soft on Russia for them.

Look up the Halloween Massacre.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, John Cotter said:

I find moralistic finger-pointing at Russia by sanctimonious Americans and westerners generally quite sickening.

 

John,

The "moralistic finger pointing" you've seen here has been directed at Putin, not Russia.

Do you think that Putin is a great leader? If so, why? Keep in mind the he unjustifiably attacked Ukraine (what did Ukraine do to Russia?) and is a proven war criminal.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

4 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Sandy, this has all be gone through in detail, step by step in the Yahtzee’s thread which got moved. You surely must know some of the counter-arguments that have been discussed?! 

 

Chris,

I'm trying to figure out why folks on your side of the argument seem incapable of seeing or admitting Putin is a brutal autocrat, without placing blame for his misdeeds on America. I mean, sure the CIA has done its fair share of international meddling, but what has the KGB done?

Do you think that Putin is a great leader? If so, why? Keep in mind the he unjustifiably attacked Ukraine (what did Ukraine do to Russia?) and is a proven war criminal.

 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Chris,

I'm trying to figure out why folks on your side of the argument seem incapable of seeing or admitting Putin is a brutal autocrat, without placing blame for his misdeeds on America. I mean, sure the CIA has done its fair share of international meddling, but what has the KGB done?

Do you think that Putin is a great leader? If so, why? Keep in mind the he unjustifiably attacked Ukraine (what did Ukraine do to Russia?) and is a proven war criminal.

 

Sandy, 

Did you read the Yahtzee Allen Dulles thread? Did you watch preeminent geopolitics expert John Mearsheimer’s lecture explaining the nuances and more or less forecasting what we have now? I think it was a 2015/16 video. By the position you are taking, I don’t think you have. 

I happy to have one last go at explaining this but, I would prefer if you had looked at the above before I launch into what will be a lengthy, explanatory post. 
 

[Douglas Caddy]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Can someone explain to me the following:

What part of the original NATO Charter allowed for the bombing of Africa, i.e. Libya?

I would argue that the attack on Libya, that is what posed a danger to Europe.

In fact, Gaddafi actually told Blair that these guys are not rebelling against me, they are Al Qaeda.  And if they overthrow me, they will attack Europe.

Which is what happened.

HRC was one of the worst Secretaries of State in recent memory.  She is a prefect example of the Neocons taking over the Democratic Party. And John Stewart has her on with Condi Rice.  Mr Liberal hosts two war criminals and throws them softballs.

Please.  Kennedy's foreign policy was deliberately destroyed by LBJ and RMN.   ANd that paved the way for the  Neocons to take over.   After all, Kissinger was too soft on Russia for them.

Look up the Halloween Massacre.

 

I agree with your assessment of HRC. I almost got sick to my stomach when I saw the video of her cackling when she heard the news that Gaddafi had been killed. 

Obama has since admitted what happened to Libya was a mistake. It went from a fairly modern society to today where slave markets take place.

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

What part of the original NATO Charter allowed for the bombing of Africa, i.e. Libya?

 

I doubt there is any such provision, Jim.

But that won't stop NATO countries from being involved in conflicts outside the NATO charter. If NATO is asked to be involved, each of its members can decide whether to participate or not.

 

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

HRC was one of the worst Secretaries of State in recent memory.  She is a prefect example of the Neocons taking over the Democratic Party. 

 

HRC wasn't a real hawk. She was cultivated to be one by the Democratic Party.

Twenty years ago it was conventional wisdom that a woman couldn't be elected president. They just aren't tough enough. What if -- heaven forbid -- the country were attacked?

Remember the Clinton campaign ad? "It's 3 AM. Who do you want answering the phone?" That was designed to make Hillary look tougher in her first run for president. When she lost to Barrack Obama, they chose her to be Secretary of State under him. That was the perfect job for her to prove her (cultivated) toughness in international affairs.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Chris,

I'm trying to figure out why folks on your side of the argument seem incapable of seeing or admitting Putin is a brutal autocrat, without placing blame for his misdeeds on America. I mean, sure the CIA has done its fair share of international meddling, but what has the KGB done?

Do you think that Putin is a great leader? If so, why? Keep in mind the he unjustifiably attacked Ukraine (what did Ukraine do to Russia?) and is a proven war criminal.

3 hours ago, Chris Barnard said:

Sandy, 

Did you read the Yahtzee Allen Dulles thread? Did you watch preeminent geopolitics expert John Mearsheimer’s lecture explaining the nuances and more or less forecasting what we have now? I think it was a 2015/16 video. By the position you are taking, I don’t think you have. 

I happy to have one last go at explaining this but, I would prefer if you had looked at the above before I launch into what will be a lengthy, explanatory post. 

 

Chris,

I would rather ask you a series of questions and figure it out myself.

Here's my first question:

Do you believe Putin is a brutal autocrat? Yes or no.

 

[John Cotter]

10 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Said the guy who called people out — then ran away when it got too hot.

I'm still here, Cliff.

It's just that there are worlds beyond your time zone where people have different circadian rhythms.