What Kind of Weapon Leaves a Shallow Wound in Soft Tissue?

[Cliff Varnell]

In the 2 hour Oliver Stone Destiny Betrayed documentary, roughly at the 26 - 31 minute mark, two crucial facts are addressed:  JFK had a wound of entrance in his throat, and a shallow wound in his back to the right of his Third Thoracic Vertebrae.

Two wounds in soft tissue, no exits, no rounds recovered in the autopsy.

What kind of weapon leaves shallow wounds in soft tissue?  Certainly not a 6.5mm Full Metal Jacket, or any other conventional firearm.

The Disturbing Story Of The Heart Attack Gun Invented By The CIA During The Cold War

https://allthatsinteresting.com/heart-attack-gun

30 years of almost unrestricted CIA activity came grinding to a halt before Senator Frank Church on Capitol Hill. After the shocking revelations of the Watergate scandal, the American public had suddenly gained an intense interest in the activities of their intelligence agencies. Unable to resist the growing disquiet any longer, Congress was forced to peer into dark corners of the Cold War — and some of them held bizarre secrets.

What they found was the stuff of paranoid thrillers and hair-raising spy fiction alike. Aside from plans to assassinate national leaders from across the globe and extensive spying on American citizens, investigators came across the heart attack gun, a macabre weapon which could cause death in minutes without leaving a trace.

This is the story of what may be one of the Central Intelligence Agency’s most chilling

Mary Embree was the researcher tasked with finding an “untraceable” poison for a range of uses, including the heart attack gun.

The roots of the heart attack gun lay in the work of one Mary Embree. Going to work for the CIA as an 18-year old high school graduate, Embree was a secretary in a division tasked with devising hidden microphones and other audio surveillance equipment, before being promoted to the Office of Technical Services. Eventually, she was ordered to find an undetectable poison. Her research led her to conclude that shellfish toxins were the ideal choice.

Unbeknownst to her, Embree had been made a part of Project MKNAOMI, a highly secretive program dedicated to crafting biological weapons for the United States’ Cold War arsenal and successor to the far more infamous Project MKULTRA. But while other MKNAOMI projects were dedicated to poisoning crops and livestock, Embree’s findings were destined to form the basis of the brass ring of black ops: killing a human being — and getting away with it.

The heart attack gun may have been intended for use on Cuban leader Fidel Castro, himself a survivor of numerous assassination attempts.

Work began in a laboratory in Fort Detrick, an Army base dedicated to biological warfare research since World War II. There, researchers under Dr. Nathan Gordon, a CIA chemist, mixed shellfish toxin with water and froze the mixture into a small pellet or dart. The finished projectile would be fired from a modified Colt M1911 pistol equipped with an electrical firing mechanism. It had an effective range of 100 meters and was virtually noiseless when fired.

When fired into a target, the frozen dart would immediately melt and release its poisonous payload into the victim’s bloodstream. Shellfish toxins, which are known to completely shut down the cardiovascular system in concentrated doses, would spread to the victim’s heart, mimicking a heart attack and causing death within minutes.

All that would be left behind was a tiny red dot where the dart entered the body, undetectable to those who didn’t know to look for it. As the target lay dying, the assassin could escape without notice.

Dr. SIdney Gottlieb, head of the CIA’s Project MKULTRA, directed Dr. Nathan Gordon to turn over the shellfish toxin stockpile to Army researchers, but was ignored.

The heart attack gun may have seemed like an outlandish idea from a spy novel, but the CIA had reason to believe it would work perfectly. After all, KGB hitman Bohdan Stashynsky had used a similar, cruder weapon with success not once, but twice, in 1957 and again in 1959. Years after leaving the CIA, Embree claimed that the modified pistol, known as a “nondiscernible microbionoculator,” had been tested on animals and prisoners to great effect.

Among other things, the Church Committee investigated possible American involvement in the deaths or attempted killings of leaders like Patrice Lumumba of the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Along with a number of other MKNAOMI creations, the heart attack gun might never have been detected if not for a growing awareness of illegal activities carried out by the United States intelligence community. When a New York Times article revealed a series of reports detailing illegal operations dubbed “the family jewels,” the Senate convened a select committee chaired by Idaho Senator Frank Church to investigate the depth of criminal intelligence actions in 1975.

The Church Committee soon became aware that former President Richard Nixon had shut down MKNAOMI in 1970. They also learned that Dr. Gordon, against the orders of Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, the elusive head of Project MKULTRA, had secreted 5.9 grams of shellfish toxin — nearly a third of all shellfish toxin ever produced at the time — and vials of toxin derived from cobra venom in a Washington, D.C. laboratory. The committee also investigated allegedly sanctioned assassination plans targeting leaders such as Cuba’s Fidel Castro, Patrice Lumumba of the Congo, and Rafael Trujillo, dictator of the Dominican Republic.

William Colby was critical of the Church Committee, arguing that it had “placed American intelligence in danger.”

In a highly publicized hearing, CIA Director William Colby himself was called to testify before the committee. He brought with him the heart attack gun itself, allowing committee members to handle the weapon as they queried him about its development, nature, and use. What became of the gun after its single public viewing is unknown.

Furthermore, whether the weapon was ever used is also unknown. The toxin may have been put to further use as a suicide pill for American operatives or as a powerful sedative and was set aside for one operation, but as Colby claimed, “we are aware that that operation was not in fact completed.”

Partially due to the Church Committee’s findings, in 1976 President Gerald Ford signed an executive order forbidding any employee of the government to “engage in, or conspire to engage in, political assassination.” If ever there was an era of the heart attack gun, it came to a close when that order was signed, bringing to an end the CIA’s most notoriously secretive and violent years.

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Nick Bartetzko]

Those two wounds are certainly a great mystery among the many in the JFKA. Documents allege the back wound left metallic residue on the jacket (and maybe the shirt) but no metallic residue was found on the front of the shirt or the tie. Weisberg conjectured that damage was caused by a nurse cutting the shirt and tie to get the clothing off. Years ago on this forum Gerry Hemming said the back wound was a “meat shot” and was designed to be a low powered …short charge… round so the bullet would be found and tied to a rifle. With Hemming, it was hard sometimes to separate fact from fiction. If that is true,  then it might have been CE 399, or the pointed bullet that Poole and Tomlinson described or the bullet found in car in the early hours of the morning as requested by the other White House physician (not Dr Burkley). So I think the back bullet was metal, but not the neck projectile was not. If someone here had the time and ability, they could analyze the entrance point of the neck wound and  where that air bubble is located, determine if one was above or below the other, and possibly reverse engineer where that shot came from. As to it originating from the umbrella man, I have no idea but I would think it certainly originated from the right side where he was located. 

[Guest]

Is it possible that the bullet that some allege went sailing through the windscreen was a different calibre to pierce the windscreen without huge damage, and that it also lost some of its energy from piercing the windscreen and even potentially deviated down to hit the throat when it was meant for the head? 

Can we legislate for any chicanery that may have taken place after JFK’s cadaver departs Parkland? 

 

The first 10 minutes discusses the bullet hole, including witnesses. 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Chris Barnard

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

Those two wounds are certainly a great mystery among the many in the JFKA. Documents allege the back wound left metallic residue on the jacket (and maybe the shirt) but no metallic residue was found on the front of the shirt or the tie. Weisberg conjectured that damage was caused by a nurse cutting the shirt and tie to get the clothing off. Years ago on this forum Gerry Hemming said the back wound was a “meat shot” and was designed to be a low powered …short charge… round so the bullet would be found and tied to a rifle. With Hemming, it was hard sometimes to separate fact from fiction.

Nick, I’ve been led to believe bullets don’t fall out of bodies.  If the intent was to tie a bullet to a rifle, the plan went sideways when no bullet was found in the autopsy.

1 hour ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

If that is true,  then it might have been CE 399, or the pointed bullet that Poole and Tomlinson described or the bullet found in car in the early hours of the morning as requested by the other White House physician (not Dr Burkley). So I think the back bullet was metal, but not the neck projectile was not. If someone here had the time and ability, they could analyze the entrance point of the neck wound and  where that air bubble is located, determine if one was above or below the other, and possibly reverse engineer where that shot came from.

The neck wound was just below the trachea, just above the tie knot.

1 hour ago, Nick Bartetzko said:

 

As to it originating from the umbrella man, I have no idea but I would think it certainly originated from the right side where he was located. 

Free Louis Witt!  

Rosemary Willis corroborated Witt’’s statement that he focused on his umbrella, not JFK, as the motorcade drove by.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Is it possible that the bullet that some allege went sailing through the windscreen was a different calibre to pierce the windscreen without huge damage, and that it also lost some of its energy from piercing the windscreen and even potentially deviated down to hit the throat when it was meant for the head? 

Perhaps Evan Marshall can chime in with his expertise on this subject.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

 

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxo9azM3xIxZouOFs_8BBKGfM_oQLFULsd


Can we legislate for any chicanery that may have taken place after JFK’s cadaver departs Parkland? 

In this scenario the bullet had to be removed pre-autopsy, since there was no round recovered from the throat,

See the work of David Lifton and Doug Horne.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Perhaps Evan Marshall can chime in with his expertise on this subject.

Actually, thats a great shout. 
 

11 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

In this scenario the bullet had to be removed pre-autopsy, since there was no round recovered from the throat,

See the work of David Lifton and Doug Horne.

From a logical standpoint, you’d want control of the body if you had to produce a plausible narrative that wasn’t true. I know this discussion has been done to death. 

[Benjamin Cole]

Endlessly curious.

OK, let's humor Cliff V. and agree that the shot to JFK's back was a dissipating bullet of some sort, undetectable. 

That still leaves the shot to the throat---where is the exit? Two dissipating bullets? 

If the object is murder JFK, why these odd bullets?

Unregistered, throw-away weapons were easily had.

LHO literally had to order his rifle by mail, and then leave it behind at the murder scene for it to be traced.

I suspect most wanna-be assassins would buy a weapon for cash anywhere, perhaps while wearing sunglasses and wig, and then throw it away post-JFKA.

But I like the Ian Fleming-ish angle of dissipating bullets. 

[Evan Marshall]

I did two sperate tours in Detroit Homicide and an old timer there told me to remember Occam's Razor and the longer I was there the more relevant it became. Attended several hundred autopsies and bullets would show up in the strangest place and some penetrated far deeper than expected and others underpenetrated. I think that we must avoid the paralysis of analysis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Evan Marshall

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Endlessly curious.

OK, let's humor Cliff V. and agree that the shot to JFK's back was a dissipating bullet of some sort, undetectable. 

That was the speculation of the autopsists the night of the autopsy.

A lot of people insist on attributing this scenario to me personally.

As well they should — on the afternoon of 11/22/63, right after my third grade class at McKinley Elementary School in Petaluma CA was sent home, a limo appeared outside my folks’ house.  The US Government needed me.  I was whisked to the airport and flown to DC.  

I got to the autopsy just as it began.  I pointed out to Humes & Co that JFK had a shallow wound in the soft tissue of his back.  Then I whispered, “Ice bullet?”

The rest is history.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

That still leaves the shot to the throat---where is the exit? Two dissipating bullets? 

No sht Sherlock.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If the object is murder JFK, why these odd bullets?

Throat shot induced paralysis and the back shot was a toxin in case the conventional rifle shots missed.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Unregistered, throw-away weapons were easily had.

LHO literally had to order his rifle by mail, and then leave it behind at the murder scene for it to be traced.

Oswald didn’t leave a weapon behind.  He said he was out front watching the motorcade.

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

I suspect most wanna-be assassins would buy a weapon for cash anywhere, perhaps while wearing sunglasses and wig, and then throw it away post-JFKA.

But I like the Ian Fleming-ish angle of dissipating bullets. 

The doctors took the possibility seriously, the CIA took the technology seriously, and a bunch of JFK hobbyists think it’s a big joke.

So what was he shot in the back with, Champ, a pellet gun?  Low power bow and target practice arrows?

Thrill us with your acumen, Ben.

[Cliff Varnell]

2 hours ago, Evan Marshall said:

I did two sperate tours in Detroit Homicide and an old timer there told me to remember Occam's Razor and the longer I was there the more relevant it became. Attended several hundred autopsies and bullets would show up in the strangest place and some penetrated far deeper than expected and others underpenetrated. I think that we must avoid the paralysis of analysis.

Did the underpenetrations occur in soft tissue?

Do bullets fall out of such shallow wounds?

It’s fair to say we must avoid paralysis, but surely we must not avoid the facts.  There were no bullets recovered from the back and throat wounds.  Evan, have you ever seen entrance wounds with no exits and no bullets?

Edited May 10, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Benjamin Cole]

13 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

That was the speculation of the autopsists the night of the autopsy.

A lot of people insist on attributing this scenario to me personally.

As well they should — on the afternoon of 11/22/63, right after my third grade class at McKinley Elementary School in Petaluma CA was sent home, a limo appeared outside my folks’ house.  The US Government needed me.  I was whisked to the airport and flown to DC.  

I got to the autopsy just as it began.  I pointed out to Humes & Co that JFK had a shallow wound in the soft tissue of his back.  Then I whispered, “Ice bullet?”

The rest is history.

No sht Sherlock.

Throat shot induced paralysis and the back shot was a toxin in case the conventional rifle shots missed.

Oswald didn’t leave a weapon behind.  He said he was out front watching the motorcade.

The doctors took the possibility seriously, the CIA took the technology seriously, and a bunch of JFK hobbyists think it’s a big joke.

So what was he shot in the back with, Champ, a pellet gun?  Low power bow and target practice arrows?

Thrill us with your acumen, Ben.

To the background music of "Goldfinger"....

Perhaps you are right Cliff. 

The CIA used dissipating and poisoned bullets in the JFKA.

Or...the autopsy was conducted by bullied and time-harried amateurs, who failed to trace the bullet's pathway from back to front through JFK.  

Certainly, I am not a Dr. No on your theories. 

You have raised a scenario equal to "Thunderball," and I admire the effort. 

Maybe you are correct, sir. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Evan Marshall said:

I did two sperate tours in Detroit Homicide and an old timer there told me to remember Occam's Razor and the longer I was there the more relevant it became. Attended several hundred autopsies and bullets would show up in the strangest place and some penetrated far deeper than expected and others underpenetrated. I think that we must avoid the paralysis of analysis.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just to play devil’s advocate here, Evan. I recognise that you may be the best talent on the forum in terms of ballistics and firearms experience  but, I have the following to say.

Occam’s Razor is a great rationale for most things. I am certain what you have said is a reflection of how effective it has been in your line of work applying it. Crimes of passion, or spontaneity, or people of average to low intellect, are a world apart from ones that involve Machiavellians of an extremely high intellect. Whilst things can always go wrong, or deviate because of the amount of variables involved, you can bank on a serious planner or planners anticipating each step of an assassination with a desired outcome in mind. You would practice that, trying to eliminate as many variables or points of failure as possible. Part of that would be, explaining away what actually happened with a narrative that seemed plausible and acceptable to the public, medical staff and law enforcement. These types of people would bank on the public using Occam’s Razor or looking for what seemed most plausible. Anything with complexity would be overlooked or dismissed as the less probable option. Example: You’d have never have caught Ted Kyzinski with Occam's Razor type logic, simply because he was extraordinarily intelligent. Simple explanations couldn’t account for his Machiavellian nature.

My point is, even though I think ice bullets with shellfish toxin is less probable as an explanation, I wouldn’t rule out something that has more complexity, that people wouldn’t immediately think of. We’re not dealing with amateurs, we’re dealing with the crime of the twentieth century, and one where the survival if the planners depended on getting away with it. 
 

I had a conversation with someone earlier about the importance of constructing a narrative for the public that seemed obvious. 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

To the background music of "Goldfinger"....

Perhaps you are right Cliff. 

The CIA used dissipating and poisoned bullets in the JFKA.

Or...the autopsy was conducted by bullied and time-harried amateurs, who failed to trace the bullet's pathway from back to front through JFK.  

The back wound was probed.  X-rays were taken.  No bullets were recovered.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Certainly, I am not a Dr. No on your theories. 

You have raised a scenario equal to "Thunderball," and I admire the effort. 

Maybe you are correct, sir. 

That’s what they told me when I boarded the flight back to the Bay. 

[Cliff Varnell]

JFK appeared to be paralyzed after the first shot.

Occam’s Razor — what’s the simplest explanation for someone acting paralyzed?

They *are* paralyzed.

[Benjamin Cole]

Just now, Cliff Varnell said:

The back wound was probed.  X-rays were taken.  No bullets were recovered.

That’s what they told me when I boarded the flight back to the Bay. 

The back wound was probed...by amateurs.

If the bullet had left the body, of course that would not show up in an x-ray. 

As I recall, Hume stuck his finger into the back wound, and noted a downward angle of 60 degrees. Although since Hume did not indicate if the acute angle was from the front or back of the body...I have never figured out what he really meant. 

Bullets can make sharp turns inside of bodies due to varying viscosities.

A puzzle to be sure.

A challenge for Mr. Q!