What Kind of Weapon Leaves a Shallow Wound in Soft Tissue?

[Cliff Varnell]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The back wound was probed...by amateurs.

Finck wasn’t an amateur.

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

If the bullet had left the body, of course that would not show up in an x-ray. 

But an exit wound would show up on the body, wouldn’t it?

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

As I recall, Hume stuck his finger into the back wound, and noted a downward angle of 60 degrees. Although since Hume did not indicate if the acute angle was from the front or back of the body...I have never figured out what he really meant. 

Finck did a proper instrument probing and declared there was no exit.

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Bullets can make sharp turns inside of bodies due to varying viscosities.

All within an inch or two?

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

A puzzle to be sure.

A challenge for Mr. Q! 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

JFK appeared to be paralyzed after the first shot.

Occam’s Razor — what’s the simplest explanation for someone acting paralyzed?

They *are* paralyzed.

Lets see how you behave with a bullet in your neck. I’d expect him to be choking or in shock, Cliff. The Trachea is very close to the vocal chords. 
 

It may be helpful to understand the instinctive mechanisms of the body, one of them is “freeze”. 

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

16 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Final wasn’t an amateur.

But an exit wound would show up and the body, wouldn’t it?

Finck did a proper instrument probing and declared there was no exit.

All within an inch or two?

 

You may be right. 

IMHO, a bullet struck JFK and likely exited from his throat. 

However, that bullet did not go on to strike JBC.

JBC said, on the official record twice, he was pushed forward by the bullet that struck him. 

That happens ~Z295. JFK is then shot in the head at Z313. About one second later, and maybe less. 

The simple math is, that there were at least two shooters on 11/22, or perhaps one armed with a semi-automatic. 

I do not rule your dissipating bullet theory out. People act in unaccountable ways. Maybe such exotic weaponry was used on JFK. The autopsy did not look for poisons, as I recall. 

But it may also be JFK was shot by Cuban exiles, CIA-assets who had no access to fancy weaponry, followed by a restricted, rushed and amateurish autopsy. 

Interesting tidbit: There are no photos of LHO anywhere after the JFKA. I suspect he was on the 6th floor, then went to the 2nd floor.

But even with numerous photos of the TSBD area after the JFKA, not one has emerged of LHO.  The guy becomes invisible. 

PS How much experience did even Finck have explicitly with gunshots? 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You may be right. 

IMHO, a bullet struck JFK and likely exited from his throat. 

The bullets holes in the clothes are 4 inches below the bottoms of the collars.  How the round get out of his throat?

Oh!  I forgot to tell ya!  When I got to the autopsy I managed to slip some dynamite Company LSD into everyone’’s drink and they hallucinated the back wound probe.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

However, that bullet did not go on to strike JBC.

JBC said, on the official record twice, he was pushed forward by the bullet that struck him. 

That happens ~Z295. JFK is then shot in the head at Z313. About one second later, and maybe less. 

The simple math is, that there were at least two shooters on 11/22, or perhaps one armed with a semi-automatic. 

I do not rule your dissipating bullet theory out. People act in unaccountable ways. Maybe such exotic weaponry was used on JFK. The autopsy did not look for poisons, as I recall. 

They wouldn’t have found any.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But it may also be JFK was shot by Cuban exiles, CIA-assets who had no access to fancy weaponry, followed by a restricted, rushed and amateurish autopsy. 

You continue to discount Dr. Finck.  What was rushed about it?

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Interesting tidbit: There are no photos of LHO anywhere after the JFKA. I suspect he was on the 6th floor, then went to the 2nd floor.

He told FBI SA Hosty he went outside to watch.  There appears to be a figure with a receding hairline standing in front of the TSBD doorway.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

But even with numerous photos of the TSBD area after the JFKA, not one has emerged of LHO.  The guy becomes invisible. 

PS How much experience did even Finck have explicitly with gunshots? 

From the WC testimony:

Colonel Finck. From 1955 to 1958 I performed approximately 200 autopsies, many of them pertaining to trauma including missile wounds, stationed at Frankfurt, Germany as pathologist of the United States Army Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany

Edited May 10, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Lets see how you behave with a bullet in your neck. I’d expect him to be choking or in shock, Cliff. The Trachea is very close to the vocal chords. 
 

It may be helpful to understand the instinctive mechanisms of the body, one of them is “freeze”. 

 

Wouldn’t the instinctive mechanism of a man with military training be — “Duck!”

Wouldn’t the plotters have to take into account the possibility the first shot only wings JFK and he hits the deck?

Edited May 10, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, Cliff Varnell said:

The bullets holes in the clothes are 4 inches below the bottoms of the collars.  How do you get that out of his throat.

Oh!  I forgot to tell ya!  When I got to the autopsy I managed to slip some dynamite Company LSD into everyone’’s drink and they hallucinated the back wound probe.

They wouldn’t have found any.

You continue to discount Dr. Finck.  What was rushed about it?

He told FBI SA Hosty he went outside to watch.  There appears to be a figure with a receding hairline standing in front of the TSBD doorway.

From the WC testimony:

Colonel Finck. From 1955 to 1958 I performed approximately 200 autopsies, many of them pertaining to trauma including missile wounds, stationed at Frankfurt, Germany as pathologist of the United States Army Hospital in Frankfurt, Germany

Like I said, you may be right.

The autopsy, from what I have read was, chaotic and rushed and amateurish.  High ranking military officers shouting to bring this or that action to a close. I mean, why even have Humes and Boswell there? 

You may be correct sir on Finck, although the word "many" pertaining to missile wounds, might mean more than three. That was peacetime (1955-58) in Germany btw. Who was getting shot dead? 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Like I said, you may be right.

The autopsy, from what I have read was, chaotic and rushed and amateurish.  High ranking military officers shouting to bring this or that action to a close. I mean, why even have Humes and Boswell there? 

They stopped Humes from probing the back wound, but not Finck..

1 hour ago, Benjamin Cole said:

You may be correct sir on Finck, although the word "many" pertaining to missile wounds, might mean more than three. That was peacetime (1955-58) in Germany btw. Who was getting shot dead? 

 Do you have any specific reasons to throw shade at Finck’s testimony?  

Edited May 10, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Wouldn’t the instinctive mechanism of a man with military training be — “Duck!”

Did Yarborough & Connally duck immediately? Our purple heart, captain on PT109 was on a drive, waving at spectators. Do you really think he was thinking about anything other than what had just hit him in the throat and breathing/choking? You can source any number of medical papers explaining 'shock' or the human 'freeze' mechanism. Think about it. 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Wouldn’t the plotters have to take into account the possibility the first shot only wings JFK and he hits the deck?

It's only 100 yards from the South Knoll. All other suggested firing locations are closer or similar distances. The record distance for a sniper shot is 3871 yards. The point is, it's child's play in terms of distance for a kill shot. Even if they fail, they blame Cuba or communists and still get their invasion of Cuba as a result. Maybe they get a shaken President who changes his policy direction. After all, it's traumatic having people shoot you. 

You'd suggest that an ice bullet was used and suggest that the first shot might only wing JFK, and he hits the deck. What if your ice bullet misses JFK and hits a civilian? Now you've got a dead or paralysed person whose body will be dealt with at Parkland, not Bethesda, in accordance with state law, and no bullet. Good luck explaining that. 

Serious questions:

How are you keeping the ice bullets cool before the shoot out? Do you take your Yeti cooler? 
How quickly are they effective, and how much of a dose do you need for them to be instantly effective in terms of paralysis? 


 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Did Yarborough & Connally duck immediately? Our purple heart, captain on PT109 was on a drive, waving at spectators. Do you really think he was thinking about anything other than what had just hit him in the throat and breathing/choking? You can source any number of medical papers explaining 'shock' or the human 'freeze' mechanism. Think about it. 

 

 

It's only 100 yards from the South Knoll. All other suggested firing locations are closer or similar distances. The record distance for a sniper shot is 3871 yards. The point is, it's child's play in terms of distance for a kill shot. Even if they fail, they blame Cuba or communists and still get their invasion of Cuba as a result.

Or the gallows.  These snipers never shot at a US President before.  Gonna bet your life on possibly nervous shooters?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Maybe they get a shaken President who changes his policy direction. After all, it's traumatic having people shoot you. 

You'd suggest that an ice bullet

No, this is what the doctors suggested.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

was used and suggest that the first shot might only wing JFK, and he hits the deck. What if your ice bullet misses JFK and hits a civilian?

What if a standard round hits a civilian?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

 

 

Now you've got a dead or paralysed person whose body will be dealt with at Parkland, not Bethesda, in accordance with state law, and no bullet. Good luck explaining that. 

Explaining what?  Guy has a heart attack.  Happens.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Serious questions:

How are you keeping the ice bullets cool before the shoot out? Do you take your Yeti cooler? 

It wasn’t an actual ice bullet.  Read the article I posted at the top.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

How quickly are they effective, and how much of a dose do you need for them to be instantly effective in terms of paralysis? 
 

Read up:

Charles Senseney http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

DCI William Colby http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_1_Colby.pdf

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Or the gallows.  These snipers never shot at a US President before.  Gonna bet your life on possibly nervous shooters?

Ah ok. Its special because its a US president which they may well despise or not give a toss about. 🙂 Talk about clutching at straws. 
 

9 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

No, this is what the doctors suggested.

Lets get this straight. You think it shellfish toxin was used on JFK? Or something else?

 

10 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

What if a standard round hits a civilian?

It did. 
 

11 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Explaining what?  Guy has a heart attack.  Happens.

Mandatory autopsy in Texas, whats this hole with blood seeping out. Explain that. 
 

12 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

It wasn’t an actual ice bullet.  Read the article I posted at the top.

I’ll have a look in the morning. 
 

12 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

ead up:

Charles Senseney http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

DCI William Colby http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_1_Colby.pdf

At these too. I do hope it gives me answers to the questions I asked. Its ok to say if you don’t know. You know that right? 

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Ah ok. Its special because its a US president which they may well despise or not give a toss about. 🙂 Talk about clutching at straws. 

...Excuse me?  You think shooting at a US President — knowing it’s death if it goes sideways — isn’t going to make a shooter nervous?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Lets get this straight. You think it shellfish toxin was used on JFK? Or something else?

For at least the second time — that’s what the autopsists thought.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

It did. 

Which J Edgar Hoover never acknowledged.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Mandatory autopsy in Texas, whats this hole with blood seeping out. Explain that. 

Who is supposed to do the explaining?

Edited May 10, 2023 by Cliff Varnell

[Guest]

Just now, Cliff Varnell said:

...Excuse me?  You don’t think shooting at a US President — knowing it’s death if it goes sideways — isn’t going to make a shooter nervous?

 

You're going to prison or getting executed, regardless of whether it's JFK, De Gaulle or the Sultan or Oman. The reality is the same. You're so fuct. 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

For at least the second time — that’s what the autopsists thought.

Ok. Let's get something straight that you are ignoring. I am asking YOU what you think happened to JFK, specifically. Can you answer?


 

 

7 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Which J Edgar Hoover never acknowledged.

What's that gotta do with the price of fish? 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Who is supposed to do the explaining?

Pull yourself together man. I have just pointed out that no autopsy doc is going to call it a heart attack when someone has a hole in them with blood seeping out. They're going to want to know how the person died. Logically, the hole in the body will be the first port of call to arouse suspicion. You've not thought about this, have you?!

 

[Nick Bartetzko]

deleted

Edited May 10, 2023 by Nick Bartetzko

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

You're going to prison or getting executed, regardless of whether it's JFK, De Gaulle or the Sultan or Oman. The reality is the same. You're so fuct. 

 

 

Ok. Let's get something straight that you are ignoring. I am asking YOU what you think happened to JFK, specifically. Can you answer?

I think the Autopsists diagnosis is highly likely.  But it isn’t *my* idea.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

What's that gotta do with the price of fish? 

The authorities could ignore anything that didn’t fit their narrative.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

Pull yourself together man. I have just pointed out that no autopsy doc is going to call it a heart attack when someone has a hole in them with blood seeping out.

And how many autopsies have you performed?

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

They're going to want to know how the person died.

Sure.  He died of a heart attack.

1 hour ago, Chris Barnard said:

 

Logically, the hole in the body will be the first port of call to arouse suspicion.

Suspicion of whom?

 

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

They stopped Humes from probing the back wound, but not Finck..

 Do you have any specific reasons to throw shade at Finck’s testimony?  

It has been years since I looked at the autopsy. My sentiment then was Finch was called in late, did what he could do under the chaotic ad controlled circumstances, and then more or less never talked about the autopsy much afterwards, and then in an anodyne manner. 

Some people have said something about a JFK back muscle moving back into place, thus blocking the wound probe.

Is every bullet path subject to probing by someone with limited experience? I don't know. 

You realize there are people who state authoritatively JFK was shot from the front without the slight doubt, and then others who declare JFK was shot from the rear, with 99.99% certainty (and that is just in the CT'er community).

You add to the mix with the dissipating bullet argument. 

I have concentrated more on the timing of shots, which I think conclusively rule out a lone gunsel armed with a single-shot bolt action rifle.