Leopoldo and Angel

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, I'm not goting into a lengthy dialog on this but I would encourage anyone following your thread who has SWHT to refer to Appendix H of SWHT, Odio Revisited. The point is that there is very good reason

to reject everything about Hall and Howard having visited Odio at all - including Odio's being shown their photos and saying she had never seen them and they were not the men in question. The FBI

itself continued its inquiry and proved that it was not those two at Odio's, but to avoid having to deal with the Warren Commissions having raised the issue, the rest of the FBI inquiry was never provided to

the WC.

I would have a lot more to say about the issue of anyone seriously using Hall as a source but we'll just let that lay. I have no real interest in becoming involved with the Walker discussion

but introducing Hall and Howard and the Odio visit as a proof is a problem...at least for me. Having said that, I'll exit...

-- Larry

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, I'm not goting into a lengthy dialog on this but I would encourage anyone following your thread who has SWHT to refer to Appendix H of SWHT, Odio Revisited. The point is that there is very good reason

to reject everything about Hall and Howard having visited Odio at all - including Odio's being shown their photos and saying she had never seen them and they were not the men in question. The FBI

itself continued its inquiry and proved that it was not those two at Odio's, but to avoid having to deal with the Warren Commissions having raised the issue, the rest of the FBI inquiry was never provided to

the WC.

I would have a lot more to say about the issue of anyone seriously using Hall as a source but we'll just let that lay. I have no real interest in becoming involved with the Walker discussion

but introducing Hall and Howard and the Odio visit as a proof is a problem...at least for me. Having said that, I'll exit...

-- Larry

Well, Larry, the FBI has proved to be unreliable on the topic of Loran Hall.

Therefore -- how do we know that the photos that the FBI showed Silvia Odio were really Loran Hall and Larry Howard?

Further, we might also speculate -- Loran Hall reversed his story to the FBI about visiting Odio (a fact that Hoover withheld from the Warren Commission). But why did reverse his story? To the National Enquirer Loran Hall said he barely escaped two attempts on his life over the Odio incident. Harry Dean says that Larry Howard threatened to kill Loran Hall. Perhaps William Seymour did, also.

So, these were violent sorts of men.

Remember, too, that Loran Hall called Silvia Odio at her home the weekend after their (alleged) visit to her doorstep. He spoke in that phone call (she said) about killing JFK. This was frightening to her.

Now -- with that background -- presuming that the FBI showed Silvia Odio the correct photos of Loran Hall and Larry Howard -- is it unlikely that days before that, Loran Hall and/or Larry Howard called Odio on the telephone AGAIN and threatened to kill her if she identified them?

One might hope that the FBI would provide protection for witnesses -- but Silvia Odio had already heard from her Warren Commission contacts that no matter what she testified, the Warren Commission's conclusions were already settled, and her testimony would make no difference at all. (I believe she reported that Rankin said that.)

The Warren Commission did report that Silvia Odio was mistaken about Lee Harvey Oswald being at her doorstep during the final week of September 1963, and that she was "under psychiatric care."

So, she was a hysterical xxxx. Given this level of support -- would she rely on the FBI to give her protection from Loran Hall and/or Larry Howard?

I grant you that Loran Hall lied very easily -- but it was generally to protect himself and his friends that he lied -- he was put on the spot and he lied to wiggle out. That's how I see it.

The problem of Hall and Howard and the Odio visit remained an open question to Gaeton Fonzi -- and he found Odio eminently believable.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 3, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

A few comments just because you did move to another thread..grin.

First, Director Hoover would have loved for the visitors to be Hall, Howard and Seymour - given the last minute inquiry from the Warren Commission and his reply to

that effect, that would have nullified the whole issue of conspiracy. Actually it speaks highly to the FBI field agents that they carried on and essentially neutered the

formal FBI reply to the commission - leaving open the door to conspiracy, something Hoover would have preferred to avoid at that point.

Certainly there would be no reason for them to use other photos since the Director wanted the Bureau solution to be those three individuals.

Second, neither Hall, Howard nor Seymour map out to the two exiles Nagell had discussed being associated with from Mexico City on to LA and then

to New Orleans....suggesting that it was other people at the Odio apartment. In addition Sylvia's father wrote to her that the people using his true

and highly confidential war name had to be fakes .....while posit in SWHT that the only people who would have known his true name were those involved

in the Veciana associated attack on Castro that put Odio into prison....definitely not Howard and Hall.

In my conversations with Gaeton we discussed the photos and he himself showed Sylvia a set of photos - I don't have it in writing but as I recall that included

the two and she passed on them with him as well.

Finally, you state that Hall called Odio as if it were some proven fact...it is not. And in that point, Hall was so unreliable that neither Hemming nor Howard trusted him

and one of the right wing groups he spoke to in California had him take a polygraph just to vet some of his basic story - nobody trusted the man.

I'm sure this will continue though....come on lurkers, doesn't else somebody want to talk with Paul or add something in here.....

[Paul Trejo]

A few comments just because you did move to another thread..grin.

First, Director Hoover would have loved for the visitors to be Hall, Howard and Seymour - given the last minute inquiry from the Warren Commission and his reply to that effect, that would have nullified the whole issue of conspiracy. Actually it speaks highly to the FBI field agents that they carried on and essentially neutered the formal FBI reply to the commission - leaving open the door to conspiracy, something Hoover would have preferred to avoid at that point.

Certainly there would be no reason for them to use other photos since the Director wanted the Bureau solution to be those three individuals.

Second, neither Hall, Howard nor Seymour map out to the two exiles Nagell had discussed being associated with from Mexico City on to LA and then to New Orleans....suggesting that it was other people at the Odio apartment. In addition Sylvia's father wrote to her that the people using his true and highly confidential war name had to be fakes .....while posit in SWHT that the only people who would have known his true name were those involved in the Veciana associated attack on Castro that put Odio into prison....definitely not Howard and Hall.

In my conversations with Gaeton we discussed the photos and he himself showed Sylvia a set of photos - I don't have it in writing but as I recall that included the two and she passed on them with him as well.

Finally, you state that Hall called Odio as if it were some proven fact...it is not. And in that point, Hall was so unreliable that neither Hemming nor Howard trusted him and one of the right wing groups he spoke to in California had him take a polygraph just to vet some of his basic story - nobody trusted the man.

I'm sure this will continue though....come on lurkers, doesn't else somebody want to talk with Paul or add something in here.....

Larry, thanks for continuing the discourse -- I'm genuinely interested in your research.

For the sake of argument I'll follow your line of reasoning. Because John Martino and Richard Case Nagell (both reliable sources) apparently agree that two Cuban Exiles from Miami -- both double agents -- were interested in Lee Harvey Oswald as a possible patsy for a Washington DC plot to murder JFK, this becomes a viable postulate.

All right -- so it seems you raise the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald actually did meet Silvia Odio at her doorstep for a full 20 minutes (as she testified under oath) only in your theory, instead of Loran Hall and Larry Howard, you're suggesting that Leopoldo and Angel were these two Cuban Exiles who worked closely with Antonio Veciana of Alpha 66 -- is that right?

We have Veciania's taped interview in which he links himself with Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas along with CIA agent, David Atlee Phillips (alias Maurice Bishop). So, this adds more tangible evidence to your claim.

Is this then your proposal -- that the two Cuban Exiles, both double-agents, identified by Martino and Nagell, were the "real" Leopolo and Angel?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 4, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

I'm afraid its a bit more complex than that not to mention that I make no claim to fully understand the Odio incident. Let me give it another shot.

The two individuals who approached Oswald in New Orleans were exiles known personally to Nagell all the way back to Mexico City. While Martino

knew that they were exiles playing at being Castro agents, he may not have personally known them. He corroborates Nagell in a general sense

as to their role playing. Nagell had no contact with the two after New Orleans, he did know they had been in Miami previously as had he.

Nagell speculated that the two men he knew had visited Odio, and gave further info about them. Given that he was already in jail at the time of the

visit he may have simply been making an assumption....I've never been able to figure out how he could have specifically known that. His futher

descriptions may be more accurate about the fellows in New Orleans than the two men at Odio's.

Personally I'm not sure that it was Oswald at Odios, there are timing issues. You are probably aware that two exiles have made statements that

they were the visitors and that Oswald was with Odio when they showed up - no corroboration for that but it did a nice job of confusing the whole

issue. The premise there would be that Oswald was playing his "look for exiles buying guns and tell the FBI role" and he had tripped over the

fact that Sylvia was shopping for guns.

The tie breaker for me is two fold. The two men at Odio's did know Amador's true war name and that goes back to people in Miami who had been

involved with the Castro assassination attempt with Veciana inside Cuba. That brings up some very interesting names. Second, she thought the men looked

- which means dressed, groomed, etc - more Mexican than Cuban which seems to support Nagell's story of exiles traveling up from Mexico City,

joining with Alpha 66 and eventually going from Miami, to New Orleans and ultimately to Dallas. Given that Martino recruited Alpha 66 types

for the Bayo-Pawley mission, that suggests he also knew at least that overall group of exiles.

I'm not sure I would call the two "double agents" since they really were not working for anyone other than their own interests in finding a patsy...at

least in New Orleans. If one or both of them showed up in Dallas with Oswald, that is almost a bit strange. Given the number of Oswald impersonations

in Dallas, setting him up, I can almost visualize it as the two exiles with an Oswald impersonator.

-- I wish I knew that full answer, Larry

[Thomas Graves]

Larry Hancock wrote:

"Given the number of Oswald impersonations in Dallas, setting him up, I can almost visualize it [The Odio Incident] as the two exiles with an Oswald impersonator."

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Larry,

Now that's an interesting possibility.

--Tommy

Edited April 4, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, there are a few instances of Oswald being sighted in Miami, which might reflect an early trial run to come up with somebody who looked enough like him

to pass....I have a couple of photo comparisons on my web site that offer potential "doubles". There are several instances of someone looking like him and using his

name in Dallas in the weeks right before the assassination, generally setting it up so he would be remembered as being seen at various points up and down Main Street

looking for a job. That keeps things flexible if the tactical plan has to undergo some alteration at the last minute. So if you have a series of impersonations in place its

certainly possible that Odio could just have been another "plant" putting his name in play with someone who might bring it up later. For that matter, there may have been

other similar "plants" with people who decided never to come forward....as did Odio herself. As I keep saying, we really don't know all the elements of the plan, we only

know something of what happened....as to how that compares with all the preparations made, my guess is that there were other things and other people who had been

set up to implicate Oswald and that just did not jell when the plan fell apart after the shooting.

[Paul Trejo]

...There are several instances of someone looking like him [Oswald] and using his name in Dallas in the weeks right before the assassination, generally setting it up so he would be remembered as being seen at various points up and down Main Street looking for a job.

...So if you have a series of impersonations in place its certainly possible that Odio could just have been another "plant" putting his name in play with someone who might bring it up later.

As I keep saying, we really don't know all the elements of the plan, we only know something of what happened...

Well, Larry, I realize that we must begin speculating at some point, simply because the FBI and CIA continue to withhold files on Lee Harvey Oswald that would crack this murder case wide open.

The abiding reason for this secrecy remains at it was in 1963 -- National Security.

Question Number One has always been -- if Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone assassin, then where is the question of National Security?

Fifty years later these FBI and CIA files are still Top Secret. So, we have no choice but presume that the US Government still believes that secrecy about Lee Harvey Oswald remains a matter of National Security. We also have no choice but to speculate about the mystery of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Gaeton Fonzi delved deeply into the Odio Incident, and he found Silvia Odio to be "eminently believable." She's very intelligent, very astute, honest and open. She was burned by the Warren Commission, but she eventually opened up to the HSCA. She didn't change her story at all.

It was Lee Harvey Oswald, she insisted, whom she saw at her doorstep for 20 minutes, only a few feet away. It was after 7pm, but the lighting in the hallway outside her apartment door was very bright. Oswald spoke to her; she heard his voice and also made that match.

Further, she told her psychiatrist about the incident even before the JFK assassination. Her psychiatrist, Dr. Einspruch, confirmed the story about "Leopoldo, Leon and another Latino name, perhaps 'Angelo'". Leopoldo did most of the talking. He was bi-lingual. He was good-looking. He looked Cuban. 'Angelo' was darker, with ruddy skin, shiny black hair, heavier, and appeared to be Mexican rather than Cuban.

Silvia Odio claimed she never saw these men before in her life. They claimed to be associated with JURE, but since she herself was active in JURE, she suspected they were lying because she didn't recognize them. (It turns out that they were lying.)

As for a "doubles" theory, it can be a distraction, IMHO. For example, Lee Harvey Oswald actually was looking for a job along Main Street during that time period. Also, the "Oswald" who took his rifle to a gun dealer to have a scope attached was never identified as "Lee Harvey", but only "Oswald," and the gun dealer could not remember his face or anything about his appearance. There must have been many men surnamed Oswald in Dallas. Finally, the rifle that Oswald purchased over the mail already had a scope attached. We need not belabor that "Oswald" any further, IMHO.

Gaeton Fonzi is a tough researcher. He examined Silvia Odio thoroughly. He believed her.

What is most telling about the scenario, IMHO, is that the FBI picked up Loran Hall shortly after they began questioning Silvia Odio. This fact leaves me asking, Why? Why? Why? Silvia Odio could not identify Loran Hall from any photographs -- she didn't know his real name. Yet the FBI promptly picked up Loran Hall.

SECONDLY -- Loran Hall confessed! He admitted that he was at the door of Silvia Odio during the last week of September 1963, and that he did have two companions with him -- one of whom was Larry Howard.

This is the most pressing fact of the whole incident, IMHO -- Loran Hall actually confessed to being at her doorstep.

Yes, we know that Loran Hall was a slippery xxxx, yet his lie was predictable -- he and Larry were there, but the American with them was not Lee Harvey Oswald, but William Seymour, he claimed.

Loran Hall -- probably stunned by the sudden appearance of the FBI at his door, evidently assumed that William Seymour would back up his story, but William Seymour had no intention of backing up Loran Hall's story. Loran Hall was on his own to explain his lie about William Seymour.

It is this aspect of the story that intrigued Gaeton Fonzi -- and still intrigues me to this very day.

Finally - the two Cubans in NOLA identified by Martino dropped out of the picture in Dallas, yet we have information that Loran Hall was in Dallas on the day JFK was murdered.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 6, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, of course you are free to believe Hall, who is demonstrably unreliable, I was in Tulsa when he was picked up in his dotage, for smuggling meth, but I'm afraid you'll have to do it

without me. Of course the Odio story is intriguing, I talked with Fonzi personally about it at length. I know you find it a path to linking in your right wing people of interest to the actual

attack....I think the incident might well have been part of a general positioning of Oswald as I discuss in the book, but that's as much as I can speculate on and I've seen nothing yet that

allows me to take it further. Just my opinion, Larry

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, of course you are free to believe Hall, who is demonstrably unreliable, I was in Tulsa when he was picked up in his dotage, for smuggling meth, but I'm afraid you'll have to do it without me. Of course the Odio story is intriguing, I talked with Fonzi personally about it at length. I know you find it a path to linking in your right wing people of interest to the actual attack....I think the incident might well have been part of a general positioning of Oswald as I discuss in the book, but that's as much as I can speculate on and I've seen nothing yet that allows me to take it further.

Just my opinion, Larry

Larry, granting that Loran Hall would like under oath -- I see no evidence of him being so inane as to step up to the FBI and claim to be "Leopoldo" for no reason at all.

Why would he ever confess to that?

Granting that Loran Hall would tell any lie to keep himself or his friends out of trouble, why would he put himself and his friends at risk by admitting to be at Sylvia Odio's doorstep on the night she claimed she saw Lee Harvey Oswald at her door with two Latinos?

Do you have an opinion about that?

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 4, 2014 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

The answer to that is easy Paul, Hall was known to make all sorts of claims to enhance his own reputation, such as being on close personal terms with Santo Trafficante. He was simply a braggart and

switched stories as opportunity allowed. That was one of the reasons nobody trusted him even then....you should have heard the claims he made after his meth arrest - being a secret govt agent,

friends in Washington, friends in the CIA, better not cross him, he'd be out as soon as they found out. Bottom line, he made a life long practice of bragging to enhance his rep...but only when it didn't put him at any

direct risk. And for that matter, I'm not sure that any of the guys he was associating with would have called him a friend per se. From my studies they tolerated him at best, and he hung out with

them to scope out opportunities to pick up donations or new leads to folks with at least some money.

[David Andrews]

Larry, granting that Loran Hall would like under oath -- I see no evidence of him being so inane as to step up to the FBI and claim to be "Leopoldo" for no reason at all.

Why would he ever confess to that?

Without wanting to be contentious - Hall knew that, beyond the Garrison case, nobody was ever prosecuted for JFK. Charles Harrelson's confession was allowed to slip away as "The drugs talking." And nobody's chasing Chauncey Holt with a subpoena. (I doubt that there's anything to Holt's stories.)

[Thomas Graves]

Larry, granting that Loran Hall would lie under oath -- I see no evidence of him being so inane as to step up to the FBI and claim to be "Leopoldo" for no reason at all.

Why would he ever confess to that?

Without wanting to be contentious - Hall knew that, beyond the Garrison case, nobody was ever prosecuted for JFK. Charles Harrelson's confession was allowed to slip away as "The drugs talking." And nobody's chasing Chauncey Holt with a subpoena. (I doubt that there's anything to Holt's stories.)

David, I know you addressed this question to Larry, but I'd like to throw in my two cents worth, too, even before Larry responds--

Maybe Hall just told the FBI what he thought (or knew) they wanted to hear, in exchange for preferential treatment / benign neglect on some other issue.

--Tommy

PS What I'd really like to know is where the authorities found Hemming's "breakdown" and scoped 30.06 Johnson so soon after the assassination and under such circumstances as to want to question Richard Hathcock / Roy Payne about it on 11/23/63.

As you knowr, Hall was alleged to have redeemed the rifle and taken it from Hathcock either on September 18 or "ten to fifteen days, or maybe a month," before the assassination.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Tommy, I see I didn't put this in the Odio revisited chapter and its just a recollection but I seem to recall that Hemming himself went to the FBI about his rifle and suggested it might have been taken out of hock and used for the assassination, my impression at the time was that either he or Howard were really trying to make trouble for Hall and get him off their backs and away from their donors. I wish I had written this up but you might want to do some searches on Hemming's correspondence and chats with the FBI, he did that quite frequently. It would at least be a place to start...

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy, I see I didn't put this in the Odio revisited chapter and its just a recollection but I seem to recall that Hemming himself went to the FBI about his rifle and suggested it might have been taken out of hock and used for the assassination, my impression at the time was that either he or Howard were really trying to make trouble for Hall and get him off their backs and away from their donors. I wish I had written this up but you might want to do some searches on Hemming's correspondence and chats with the FBI, he did that quite frequently. It would at least be a place to start...

Larry,

In his Nodule 13, A. J. Webberman has a lot of the FBI information as well as his own interviews with Hemming, and in his analysis he says he thinks that Hemming told Hall to get the rifle out of hock in order to set Hall up as an alternate patsy.

What I'd really like to know is whether or not the rifle was found somewhere in Dallas (Dealey Plaza, Trade Mart, etc) right before or right after the assassination. Apparently it was, otherwise why would the FBI want to ask Hathcock / Payne about it on 11/23/63?

--Tommy

Edited April 5, 2014 by Thomas Graves