Uncovering Popov's Mole

[Jonathan Cohen]

There is no such person as "Harvey." It is also preposterous to infer from John Pic's Warren Commission testimony that he actually believed his half-brother Lee had been "replaced" by some other human being.

[David Josephs]

22 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

There is no such person as "Harvey." It is also preposterous to infer from John Pic's Warren Commission testimony that he actually believed his half-brother Lee had been "replaced" by some other human being.

Why are completely vapid posts disparaging the work of many members and researchers in the community allowed?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=825.  CE281

Mr. JENNER - I show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first Commission Exhibit No. 281 and Exhibit No. 282 being some spread pages of an issue of Life magazine of February 21, 1964. I direct your attention first to the lower lefthand spread at .the bottom of the page. Do you recognize the area shown there?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother?
Mr. PIC - This one here with the arrow.
Mr. JENNER - The one that has the printed arrow?
Mr. PIC - That is correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And you recognize that as your brother?
Mr. PIC - Because they say so, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Please, I don't want you to say--
Mr. PIC - No; I couldn't recognize that.
Mr. JENNER - Because this magazine says that it is.
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I couldn't recognize him from that picture.
Mr. JENNER - You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee.
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - In the upper portion there are a series of photographs spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. Take those on the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. Do you recognize the persons shown in that photograph?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize ,this photograph, the people from left to right being Robert Oswald, the center one being Lee Oswald, and the third one being myself. This picture was taken at the house in Dallas when we returned from New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER - You mean from--when you came from New Orleans after being at the Bethlehem Orphanage Home?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - And you went to Dallas?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - It was taken in Dallas at or about that time?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - Do you have any impression as to when and where that was taken?
Mr. PIC - Just looking at the picture, I would guess first, second grade, maybe. I would have to guess at it.
Mr. JENNER - Then there is one immediately to the right of that, a young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. There are some other people apparently in the background.
Mr. PIC - I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - Does anything about the picture enable you to identify as to where that was taken?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either of those young people?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - Is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. Do you recognize that?
Mr. PIC - Sir, from that picture, I could not recognize that that is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 284 do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be Lee Oswald?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.
Mr. JENNER - There is a young fellow in the foreground-everybody else is facing the other way. He is in a pantomime, or grimace. Do you recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; looking at that picture and I have looked at it several times--that looks more like Robert than it does Lee, to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER - All right. On Exhibit No. 286, the lower right-hand corner, there is another picture. Do you recognize that as your brother Lee in that picture?
Mr. PIC - Yes, sir; that is about how he looked when I seen him in 1962, his profile.
Mr. JENNER - Do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is pointing her finger at him?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - Neither one of them?
Mr. PIC - No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir.
Mr. JENNER - All right. Exhibit No. 288, there is ill the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. Do you recognize that?
Mr. PIC - That looks to me approximately how Lee Oswald looked when I seen him Thanksgiving 1962.
Mr. JENNER - Directing your attention to Exhibit, Commission Exhibit No. 289, do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother Lee?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I do not recognize them.
Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 290, the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. Do you recognize either of those persons?
Mr. PIC - He appears to me as Lee Harvey Oswald in 1962 when I seen him.
Mr. JENNER - And the lady?
Mr. PIC - She is his wife, Marina, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Commission Exhibit No. 291, at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. Do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet?
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I would be unable to recognize him.
Mr. JENNER - As to whether he was your brother?
Mr. PIC - That is correct.

[Paul Brancato]

I don’t mind your posts at all, but let’s put it on another thread. I’ve always been struck by Pic not recognizing his brother. If you start a new thread and import these posts I won’t leave you hanging.

[David Josephs]

2 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I don’t mind your posts at all, but let’s put it on another thread. I’ve always been struck by Pic not recognizing his brother. If you start a new thread and import these posts I won’t leave you hanging.

Been done 100 times Paul.  Do a search before yet another H&L thread begins.  Please

[Jonathan Cohen]

Nowhere in any of Pic's testimony does he say that the person in the photo was NOT his brother. He simply says he didn't recognize him, which is perfectly logical considering he hadn't seen him in person years.

[Benjamin Cole]

21 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Nowhere in any of Pic's testimony does he say that the person in the photo was NOT his brother. He simply says he didn't recognize him, which is perfectly logical considering he hadn't seen him in person years.

It never hurts to adopt a friendly, collegial tone. 

Another JFKA researcher has another view than yours. So what? 

Try the expression, "Well, I am just another another page from you on this one."

Or, "Well, we can agree to disagree on this." 

 

[David Josephs]

The quote was taken from Ben's post - so his name appears. FWIW

8 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Nowhere in any of Pic's testimony does he say that the person in the photo was NOT his brother.

8 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Nowhere in any of Pic's testimony

Consider learning to read JC

Mr. JENNER - That young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall Lee looked in 1952 and 1953 when you saw him in New York City?
Mr. PIC - No, sir.

Mr. JENNER - And you recognize that as your brother?
Mr. PIC - Because they say so, sir.
Mr. JENNER - Please, I don't want you to say--
Mr. PIC - No; I couldn't recognize that.

Mr. JENNER - You don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? When I say your brother now, I am talking about Lee.
Mr. PIC - No, sir.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by David Josephs

[Paul Brancato]

9 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Nowhere in any of Pic's testimony does he say that the person in the photo was NOT his brother. He simply says he didn't recognize him, which is perfectly logical considering he hadn't seen him in person years.

Not that logical. And he is given every opportunity to say it looks like him but I’m not sure because I haven’t seen him in years. Imagine Pic coming in for that questioning without himself looking over his memories, or contacting other family members and comparing notes beforehand. That really doesn’t make sense. 

[Pat Speer]

On 6/14/2023 at 12:42 PM, Pete Mellor said:

UPM is a profound piece of work, the review by Paul says it all.

Was Nosenko a genuine defector?  I go with Newman, that he was a provocation.  Angleton was right about him because at that time he was heavily influenced by the revelations from Golitsyn that "future Soviet defectors would be false."

Was the reason the mole was not revealed because he was Bruce Solie, in charge of the hunt?  Place your bets.  I'm 2-1 on.  & Nosenko gets married to Solie's wife's sister!

Edward Clare Petty's CI/SIG report to CIA in 1975 stated that the 'mole' in CIA, that Angleton had been hunting for 25 years was, in fact, Angleton!  Was this the impetus for Director William Colby to firstly remove Angleton from the Israeli desk & then quickly retire Angleton completely in December of '75?

UPM is spy wars not really JFKA, but as complex as any le Carre novel. The chronology fluctuates, so requires careful reading and some re-reading too.  But, is a must read for all interested in the JFK case.  Can't wait for Vol V Armageddon.  

FWIW, William F. Buckley, a former spook who remained well-connected with the agency, wrote a novel in which Angleton ultimately uncovered his mole--and it was Colby. 

[David Josephs]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:42 PM, Pete Mellor said:

Edward Clare Petty's CI/SIG report to CIA in 1975 stated that the 'mole' in CIA, that Angleton had been hunting for 25 years was, in fact, Angleton! 

IMO the most logical and intelligent manner of mole-hunting... chase yourself forever.

[Denny Zartman]

In my view it's clear from the quotes @David Josephs has posted above, that Pic clearly says the following :

1. The person in the picture does not look like Lee.

2. Pic does not recognize his brother in the picture.

3. The person in the picture does not appear to his brother.

I don't know how anyone could characterize it otherwise.

As @Paul Brancato has pointed out, Pic is offered every opportunity to say "yes" or something like "he sure changed a lot, he's almost unrecognizable" or just a simple "I don't know, I couldn't say." Instead, he says "no." He says "no" three times. How can anyone spin that as Pic being unsure?

If Pic had answered "Yes" to each question, would we still be wondering what he said? Of course we wouldn't. So why do people have a tough time accepting that Pic clearly said "No" three times?

Pic only says it's his brother in the picture because others has said it was. He repeatedly makes it plain that he does not recognize the person in the picture as being Lee.

[Paul Cummings]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

FWIW, William F. Buckley, a former spook who remained well-connected with the agency, wrote a novel in which Angleton ultimately uncovered his mole--and it was Colby. 

The same guy (Colby) who exposed CIA in Congress is Angleton's mole? pfft

[David Josephs]

14 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

The same guy (Colby) who exposed CIA in Congress is Angleton's mole? pfft

"wrote a novel"

a fictitious prose narrative of book length, typically representing character and action with some degree of realism.

[Paul Cummings]

10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

"wrote a novel"

a fictitious prose narrative of book length, typically representing character and action with some degree of realism.

Did it come with illustrations and pictures?

[David Josephs]

12 minutes ago, Paul Cummings said:

Did it come with illustrations and pictures?

Color by number

This is actually page 1 of the JFK coloring book..  "color their noses burnt umber"