CIA Memo? When LHO "Allegedly" Visited the MC Soviet Embassy

[Benjamin Cole]

In the most recent docs non-release, was this memo linked to below. 

The title of the two-page memo below (possibly written in 1969) is still "withheld" and parts of the memo are still redacted. It seems like a CIA doc, but not sure. Maybe Tom Gram or Larry Hancock can decipher. An untitled HSCA doc? 

A curiosity is this sentence, bottom of page 1, "In 1963 when OSWALD allegedly visited the Soviet embassy, Scantling was the P/A for the limited basehouse and LIEMPTY-6 [then large redaction, several words] was the photo tech who took the pictures."

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2023/104-10065-10028.pdf

I know there is debate within the EF-JFKA whether LHO ever visited to the Soviet embassy, or even Mexico City. 

I think LHO did visit the Soviet Embassy, based partly in a Frontline interview with Kostikov and two comrades, who all said they in fact met the real LHO.  I suspect the CIA wanted the real LHO to meet Kostikov, and manipulated matters to make such a biography build happen. 

Nevertheless, part of JFKA research is to look at events from all sides. This mysterious memo refers to the "alleged" LHO visit.

A CIA officer was not sure LHO visited the Soviet Embassy? 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Benjamin Cole

[Tom Gram]

It has a 104- RIF so it is a CIA record, but no idea when or why it was prepared. I think you’re probably right that this is an HSCA era memo, since that’s when MC was getting reinvestigated. Larry is a heck of lot more familiar with CIA records than I am so maybe he can shed some light. 

I think the redaction is probably just the identity of LIEMPTY-6, since the redaction is in parentheses, and the extra words are something like (LIEMPTY-6 is Juan Doe, contract agent since 1957), etc. Just a guess though. 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

It has a 104- RIF so it is a CIA record, but no idea when or why it was prepared. I think you’re probably right that this is an HSCA era memo, since that’s when MC was getting reinvestigated. Larry is a heck of lot more familiar with CIA records than I am so maybe he can shed some light. 

I think the redaction is probably just the identity of LIEMPTY-6, since the redaction is in parentheses, and the extra words are something like (LIEMPTY-6 is Juan Doe, contract agent since 1957), etc. Just a guess though. 

Thanks. 

If a CIA doc...maybe the use of the word "allegedly" to describe the LHO visit to the Soviet embassy was just a verbal miscue. 

 

 

 

[Joseph Backes]

Benjamin,

The title, "Withheld," was created in 1993 when the 1992 JFK Act mandated the creation of an identification aid which became the RIF numbering system and form.   Since the name "Ramon Joseph Alvarez Durant" was being redacted they went with "Withheld" as a title.  It is not the case that the title is still being withheld from us.  This is also the case for a great many other documents.  

This is a CIA document.  Unfortunately, these NARA post 2017 releases often do not include the RIF in what gets scanned in the .pdf they release.  A RIF usually gives us the date the doc was created. But, we don't know when this was written.

The issue of whether LHO actually visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies / consulates was questioned almost immediately once it was put forth.  It was an issue right away.  And the issue and questions only grew with time.  As John Newman commented in the 1990's when he gave presentations on this it really doesn't matter if Oswald did, if he was impersonated in person, or only impersonated on the phone, or any combination of that.  We can prove they lied and we have a law on our side.  It's not up to us to guess with the evidence withheld.  They have to explain.  For the record, he was clearly impersonated in person.  Silvia Duran described Oswald as having "Blonde hair."  And Oswald and Duran were impersonated on the phone.  So, with that said the use of the word "allegedly" isn't that odd.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

5 minutes ago, Joseph Backes said:

Benjamin,

The title, "Withheld," was created in 1993 when the 1992 JFK Act mandated the creation of an identification aid which became the RIF numbering system and form.   Since the name "Ramon Joseph Alvarez Durant" was being redacted they went with "Withheld" as a title.  It is not the case that the title is still being withheld from us.  This is also the case for a great many other documents.  

This is a CIA document.  Unfortunately, these NARA post 2017 releases often do not include the RIF in what gets scanned in the .pdf they release.  A RIF usually gives us the date the doc was created. But, we don't know when this was written.

The issue of whether LHO actually visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies / consulates was questioned almost immediately once it was put forth.  It was an issue right away.  And the issue and questions only grew with time.  As John Newman commented in the 1990's when he gave presentations on this it really doesn't matter if Oswald did, if he was impersonated in person, or only impersonated on the phone, or any combination of that.  We can prove they lied and we have a law on our side.  It's not up to us to guess with the evidence withheld.  They have to explain.  For the record, he was clearly impersonated in person.  Silvia Duran described Oswald as having "Blonde hair."  And Oswald and Duran were impersonated on the phone.  So, with that said the use of the word "allegedly" isn't that odd.

 

JB--

Thanks for your comment, and I admire your knowledge of the documents and recording systems. 

IMHO, yes LHO was impersonated and also in MC. 

My take is LHO was a CIA asset, and there was a lot of "Spy v. Spy" (Mad magazine for oldsters) manipulation going on. Somehow the CIA arranged for LHO to meet with Kostikov on a Saturday---probably by intentionally "leaking" info to Soviet assets that LHO was a CIA asset. 

Intrigued, Kostikov agreed to meet. 

When did ever an ordinary US tourist arrive at a Russian embassy on a Saturday and meet with high-ranking embassy officials? Three of them? 

Just IMHO....

 

[Gerry Down]

The CIAs position seems to have been that they could never state for sure if LHO physically entered the USSR embassy, only that he had phoned the embassy because they had picked up his conversations with to he USSR embassies via the wiretap. This is why the document says that oswald "allegedly visited" the Soviet Embassy.

I think the paper work backs this up. The CIA cables to the FBI in Oct 1963 for example says an Oswald guy made contact with the Soviet embassy. The cables do not actually say he physically entered the building. 

[Joseph Backes]

Benjamin,

John Newman pointed out that in Cuba the employees of these places played volleyball on Saturday and they were very serious about it.  

Unfortunately, John Newman's presentation at Lancer '99 which I transcribed and scanned copies of docs that John had as slides was on Lancer's website which got hacked.  So, it's not online anymore and I have been too busy to recreate it and put it back up.  But, it's something I want to get done when I can.

That presentation answers many questions.

[Michael Crane]

I personally believe that CIA operative Tosh Plumlee tried to let us in on a little secret by posting this Nash Rambler & mentioning the blue Mexico turist sticker.

This car IMO is the car that drove a Lee Harvey Oswald impersonator to Mexico City.

*And possibly the Nash Rambler that drove Oswald away from the TSBD (unlikely,but still)

Edited July 1, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Mark Knight]

25 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

I personally believe that CIA operative Tosh Plumlee tried let us in on a little secret by posting this Nash Rambler & mentioning the blue Mexico turist sticker.

This car IMO is the car that drove the Lee Harvey Oswald impersonator to Mexico City.

*And possibly the Nash Rambler that drove Oswald away from the TSBD (unlikely, but still)

That's an often-overlooked point. Ruth Paine never owned a Rambler. And there are all kinds of falsifications involving the records of the alleged bus trip to Mexico. While I question a lot of what Plumlee said, I think the Rambler station wagon is a clue.

[Jonathan Cohen]

3 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

I personally believe that CIA operative Tosh Plumlee tried let us in on a little secret by posting this Nash Rambler & mentioning the blue Mexico turist sticker.

This car IMO is the car that drove the Lee Harvey Oswald impersonator to Mexico City.

*And possibly the Nash Rambler that drove Oswald away from the TSBD (unlikely,but still)

This is a ludicrous thing to believe.

[Benjamin Cole]

8 hours ago, Joseph Backes said:

Benjamin,

John Newman pointed out that in Cuba the employees of these places played volleyball on Saturday and they were very serious about it.  

Unfortunately, John Newman's presentation at Lancer '99 which I transcribed and scanned copies of docs that John had as slides was on Lancer's website which got hacked.  So, it's not online anymore and I have been too busy to recreate it and put it back up.  But, it's something I want to get done when I can.

That presentation answers many questions.

JB-

Thanks.

My understanding is that Newman believes that LHO was in MC and also impersonated while there. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYI4PqtIyE0&t=3830s

In the link above, the three embassy KGB officers, recorded and on film, say they met the real LHO in MC. About the 1:03 mark. 

My guess is if the KGB officers just wanted to make money, they would say they met a fake LHO in MC. 

The other option is US-intel came up with some serious money for the trio, and bribed them. They are lying. 

 

[Bill Brown]

 

At the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, all three consular officials (undercover KGB officers) stated that the man they met with was indeed Lee Oswald.

Pavel Yatskov

Oleg Nechiporenko

Valery Kostikov

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Bill Brown said:

 

At the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, all three consular officials (undercover KGB officers) stated that the man they met with was indeed Lee Oswald.

Pavel Yatskov

Oleg Nechiporenko

Valery Kostikov

 

And I suspect they did. 

But..they only agreed to the Frontline interview after the fall of the Soviet Union. Some have questioned the bias of the Frontline report.

Money was tight after the collapse of the SU. 

Money can change memories. 

 

[Joseph Backes]

7 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

JB-

Thanks.

My understanding is that Newman believes that LHO was in MC and also impersonated while there. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYI4PqtIyE0&t=3830s

In the link above, the three embassy KGB officers, recorded and on film, say they met the real LHO in MC. About the 1:03 mark. 

My guess is if the KGB officers just wanted to make money, they would say they met a fake LHO in MC. 

The other option is US-intel came up with some serious money for the trio, and bribed them. They are lying. 

 

For me it doesn't really matter.  I think he was physically impersonated if Duran's comment of a Blonde haired Oswald is true. 

He and Duran were definitely impersonated on the phone.  

I can't understand why no photo exists of LHO in MC.  There were spies taking photos of spies taking photos of spies.  I would think the Soviets and the Cubans would take photos of who's coming and going from their own embassies and consulates.  The Mexican government would be taking photos and the CIA was taking photos.  And after a stay of several days, multiple visits, there's nothing.  All that there is are photos of someone who definitely is not Oswald.  

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Joseph Backes said:

For me it doesn't really matter.  I think he was physically impersonated if Duran's comment of a Blonde haired Oswald is true. 

He and Duran were definitely impersonated on the phone.  

I can't understand why no photo exists of LHO in MC.  There were spies taking photos of spies taking photos of spies.  I would think the Soviets and the Cubans would take photos of who's coming and going from their own embassies and consulates.  The Mexican government would be taking photos and the CIA was taking photos.  And after a stay of several days, multiple visits, there's nothing.  All that there is are photos of someone who definitely is not Oswald.  

Larry Hancock will sneer at me, but there was a statement by someone in the CIA that they had to rely on Mexican nationals to man the cameras, and they were (naturally enough) bored and not particularly serious. In addition, one automatic camera was not working. 

Also, evidently, at least one of the cameras was in a known location. 

But who knows? Maybe they did not take a picture of LHO as they knew "he is one of ours."

I concur with you, someone impersonated LHO in Mexico city.