CIA Memo? When LHO "Allegedly" Visited the MC Soviet Embassy

[Michael Crane]

5 hours ago, Joseph Backes said:

 I think he was physically impersonated if Duran's comment of a Blonde haired Oswald is true. 

Sylvia was subjected to harsh treatment because she would not identify the Oswald imposter as Lee himself & also because she wouldn't identify LHO as the imposter that was there.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Michael Crane]

4 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

In addition, one automatic camera was not working. 

This is more common when we have police brutality.

These cameras seem to be not working at critical times  😉

[Benjamin Cole]

42 minutes ago, Michael Crane said:

This is more common when we have police brutality.

These cameras seem to be not working at critical times  😉

Yes, cameras often fail...consider Jeffrey Epstein. 

The smartphone geo-locators worked on hundreds of 1/6 occupiers...but the data was "corrupted" for the pipe-bomber, according to the FBI.

But...1960s technology...maybe the automatic cameras did fail. 

[Benjamin Cole]

23 hours ago, Gerry Down said:

The CIAs position seems to have been that they could never state for sure if LHO physically entered the USSR embassy, only that he had phoned the embassy because they had picked up his conversations with to he USSR embassies via the wiretap. This is why the document says that oswald "allegedly visited" the Soviet Embassy.

I think the paper work backs this up. The CIA cables to the FBI in Oct 1963 for example says an Oswald guy made contact with the Soviet embassy. The cables do not actually say he physically entered the building. 

Maybe.

The CIA told LBJ in no uncertain terms that LHO had visited Kostikov in MC, who worked in the Dept 13, "wet work" or assassinations in the Western hemisphere. 

That was one ostensible reason for the tightly controlled "investigation" of LHO.

LBJ told Warren that a wrong result could result in WWIII. 

John Newman called that the WWIII virus. It was a great biography build, in any case. 

 

[Gerry Down]

22 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

Maybe.

The CIA told LBJ in no uncertain terms that LHO had visited Kostikov in MC, who worked in the Dept 13, "wet work" or assassinations in the Western hemisphere. 

That was one ostensible reason for the tightly controlled "investigation" of LHO.

LBJ told Warren that a wrong result could result in WWIII. 

John Newman called that the WWIII virus. It was a great biography build, in any case. 

 

Now that I think of it, in the immediate aftermath of the assassination the FBI were saying that LHO had visited kostkov. Had the CIA told the fbi that LHO had actually met with kostkov? Or just talked with him on the phone?

[Gene Kelly]

Gerry

Allegedly, he actually met with him on September 28th.  A document (see link below) was released in 2014: "DCI John McCone and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy by David Robarge from Studies in intelligence Vol. 57, No. 3 (September 2013) authored by David Robarge:

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu//NSAEBB/NSAEBB493/docs/intell_ebb_026.PDF

It's referenced in an October 2017 article by Carl Schreck entitled: "Did Oswald Really Meet KGB 'Assassinations' Officer Before Killing Kennedy?" Excerpts from this article refer to a declassified document dated November 23, 1963, which states that - according to an intercepted phone call in Mexico City - Oswald was at the Soviet Embassy on September 28, 1963, ostensibly seeking a Soviet visa to return. The CIA document states that Oswald called the Soviet Embassy on October 1, 1963, "identifying himself by name and speaking broken Russian, stating" that he'd spoken to Kostikov "and asking the guard who answered the phone whether there was 'anything new concerning the telegram to Washington.'" Kostikov himself was quoted in a book by a fellow KGB officer, Oleg Nechiporenko (which John Newman believes to be not credible).  Nechiporenko quoted Kostikov as saying that he and his colleagues were preparing for a volleyball game when Oswald showed up at the embassy ... he found Oswald sitting there with a colleague to whom Kostikov explained that the American had been there the previous day. Kostikov said Oswald "was very riled up and broke into hysterics at the mention of the FBI, crying and saying as he wept: ‘I'm afraid they'll kill me. Let me in.'" He said Oswald pulled out a handgun, saying that he carried it for protection, and put it on the table in front of them, Nechiporenko quoted Kostikov as saying. 

The released document has a footnote that states the following:

CIA did not establish that the Soviet with whom Oswald met, Valery Kostikov, was from the KGB's "wet affairs" department According to transcripts or their telephone conversations [redacted] they only discussed Oswald's request for a visa. By early 1964, the Agency had concluded that Oswald's contact with the KGB In Mexico City "was nothing more than a grim coincidence.... " Oles Nechiporenko, one of the KGB officers in Mexico City during Oswald's trip there, has recounted the Soviets' dealing with him In Passport to Assassination.

Gene

[Joseph Backes]

People,

It's not important if the real LHO went to MC or not.  Do not get lost in a discussion of did he or didn't he. 

The important thing is who was told that he did and why were they being told that he did.  And that that information went into several US intel agency files and did not ring alarm bells.  It lay dormant and bloomed like a virus only after the gunfire in Dealey Plaza. And then it was used to silence those US intel agencies, to blackmail them into inaction.

There was info about LHO visiting with Soviets and Cubans, even meeting the Soviet guy in charge of assassinations in the Western hemisphere, threatening to kill JFK six weeks before the murder and you did nothing? So, instead of people learning that they all decide to support the lone nut solution.

There are very few people on earth in 1963 who could accomplish this task six weeks before the assassination. And it is the best evidence of a conspiracy within the highest levels of the US federal government. 

The story of MC was used to get Earl Warren to chair the commission LBJ creates.  The transcript of this LBJ phone call to Senator Richard Russell is in Michael Beschloss's first book on the LBJ tapes, "Taking Charge." ops 66 - 72. LBJ is telling Russell how he got Warren to come to the White House. LBJ sent RFK to get him and Warren refused.  LBJ demanded he come and when he did he hit him with the WWIII threat.  "And I just pulled out  what Hoover told me about a little incident in Mexico City."  

It doesn't matter if the real LHO or an imposter met Kostikov.  What matters is the story of LHO meeting Kostikov is told to people who do believe it and are terrified when they hear it.  They are thus manipulated into stopping others from hearing this story fearing the American public will demand a nuclear strike against Cuba or Russia or both and then it's WWIII because it'll be your fault if people learn this, and your fault if WWIII starts.  

Who came up with this WWIII threat is a better question to ask then did the real LHO go to MC or not.

Joe

[Greg Doudna]

2 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

It's referenced in an October 2017 article by Carl Schreck entitled: "Did Oswald Really Meet KGB 'Assassinations' Officer Before Killing Kennedy?" Excerpts from this article refer to a declassified document dated November 23, 1963, which states that - according to an intercepted phone call in Mexico City - Oswald was at the Soviet Embassy on September 28, 1963, ostensibly seeking a Soviet visa to return. The CIA document states that Oswald called the Soviet Embassy on October 1, 1963, "identifying himself by name and speaking broken Russian, stating" that he'd spoken to Kostikov "and asking the guard who answered the phone whether there was 'anything new concerning the telegram to Washington.'"

The caller (who seems to not be Oswald) does NOT refer to Kostikov--that is the Russian person answering the phone at the Soviet consulate who volunteers the name.

October 1 at 11:30 a.m.

The same voice, still speaking in broken Russian, telephones the Russian Consulate. He speaks to a man identified as "Obyedkov."

Oswald: Hello, this is Lee Oswald. I was at your place last Saturday and talked to your Consul. They said they'd send a telegram to Washington and I wanted to ask you whether there was anything new, but I cannot remember the name of the Consul.

Obyedkov: Kostikov. He is dark?

Oswald: Yes. My name is Oswald.

Obyedkov: Just a minute. I'll find out. They say they have not received anything yet.

Oswald: Have they done anything?

Obyedkov: Yes, they say a request has been sent out, but nothing has been received yet.

Oswald: And what...

Obyedkov: (hangs up)

(source: https://www.newsweek.com/transcript-lee-harvey-oswald-calls-soviet-embassy-revealed-jfk-file-release-701924)

Since it seems to be an impersonator calling, and the impersonator says "I cannot remember the name", could this be a phishing call? The US side knows Oswald went in and talked inside but does not know to who exactly, and is trying to find out more information? The phishing call gets lucky and a name is learned?

[Leslie Sharp]

On 6/30/2023 at 1:52 PM, Michael Crane said:

I personally believe that CIA operative Tosh Plumlee tried to let us in on a little secret by posting this Nash Rambler & mentioning the blue Mexico turist sticker.

This car IMO is the car that drove a Lee Harvey Oswald impersonator to Mexico City.

*And possibly the Nash Rambler that drove Oswald away from the TSBD (unlikely,but still)

@Mark Knight Have you conferred with Richard Bartholomew over the years? I believe he and Jay Harrison played a significant role in early preservation of this vehicle. 

[Leslie Sharp]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:00 AM, Joseph Backes said:

Benjamin,

The title, "Withheld," was created in 1993 when the 1992 JFK Act mandated the creation of an identification aid which became the RIF numbering system and form.   Since the name "Ramon Joseph Alvarez Durant" was being redacted they went with "Withheld" as a title.  It is not the case that the title is still being withheld from us.  This is also the case for a great many other documents.  

This is a CIA document.  Unfortunately, these NARA post 2017 releases often do not include the RIF in what gets scanned in the .pdf they release.  A RIF usually gives us the date the doc was created. But, we don't know when this was written.

The issue of whether LHO actually visited the Soviet and Cuban embassies / consulates was questioned almost immediately once it was put forth.  It was an issue right away.  And the issue and questions only grew with time.  As John Newman commented in the 1990's when he gave presentations on this it really doesn't matter if Oswald did, if he was impersonated in person, or only impersonated on the phone, or any combination of that.  We can prove they lied and we have a law on our side.  It's not up to us to guess with the evidence withheld.  They have to explain.  For the record, he was clearly impersonated in person.  Silvia Duran described Oswald as having "Blonde hair."  And Oswald and Duran were impersonated on the phone.  So, with that said the use of the word "allegedly" isn't that odd.

 

Didn't Jane Roman play a significant role in the distortion of certain Oswald MC records? Maybe I'm overlooking, but I'm not seeing her mentioned in this discussion.

[Benjamin Cole]

2 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

Didn't Jane Roman play a significant role in the distortion of certain Oswald MC records? Maybe I'm overlooking, but I'm not seeing her mentioned in this discussion.

AsI recall, J Morley and another researcher did talk to Roman,  and she confirmed records were monkeyed with. 

[Joseph Backes]

Do we really need to summarize John Newman's book, and Jefferson Morley's and Gaston Fonzi's, and the Lopez report, and a few hundred documents in this thread before it dies?

[Joseph Backes]

3 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

AsI recall, J Morley and another researcher did talk to Roman,  and she confirmed records were monkeyed with. 

The other researcher was John Newman.  

[Benjamin Cole]

1 minute ago, Joseph Backes said:

The other researcher was John Newman.  

JB--you sure know your stuff.

[Michael Crane]

7 hours ago, Leslie Sharp said:

@Mark Knight Have you conferred with Richard Bartholomew over the years? I believe he and Jay Harrison played a significant role in early preservation of this vehicle. 

The vehicle has been taken to the scrap yard & scrapped.Can't remember which year.

Like I have said before on this forum,there is video footage of this car being worked on in a secret location.

Edited July 2, 2023 by Michael Crane