HOW VISIBLE WOULD A KNOLL SHOOTER BE?

[Chris Bristow]

 It is really common to hear people who have been to the plaza remark about how small it actually is. They stand behind the fence and decide it is too obvious a location. 

 I am not advocating for or against a knoll shooter, I just wanted to do a fair evaluation of the coverage there. I was surprised to find there was much more coverage than I suspected. 

On the map there are several inserts. 3rd from the top shows two of the small trees on the south facing fence. Note the small 4" gap from the fence top to the first tree(12ft from the corner). It is the center part of that tree that leaves a 4" gap and  is 24" wide. 

A shooter standing there and aiming toward the limo at frame 313 would have the rifle at a very shallow angle to the fence, putting the butt of the rifle less than 15" from the fence. That allows a shooter to stand very close and get more coverage. The two red lines on the map show approx how much coverage the tree would provide, leaving only the 4" gap.  The  red line heading to the overpass would intersect, or come close to, the second tree and help block the view to the overpass. The magnified map insert shows both trees and the second tree is about 30% larger than the first tree. 

A shooter would have to fire between the 4" gap so their head would have be low to use the sights.  Maybe 8" of the shooter would appear above the fence. 

 The red lines show the shooter would have a wide swath of coverage. The blue line shows zapruder's line of sight but it is blocked by the bush on the east facing fence. The insert of the Z frame shows the tree that would have hid the shooter from Z.

There is a break in coverage  on the east fence at the corner as seen in The Z frame. The gold horizontal lines on the map illustrate who could see through that gap. this would allow the couple eating lunch on the patio to see the shooter, but only if they stood up. They were about one foot too low so maybe could have seen the top few inches of the shooters head. Black Dog Man could have see the shooter slightly obscured by the few branches over that gap in coverage. Anyone in the pergola may have had a fairly direct view of a shooter.

Continuing along that line of sight the gold horizontal lines extend to the Newman's. But the eye level at that location would be a full 5 ft below the fence top. . At that distance the 8" of the shooter visible above the fence would very small. to get an idea of it, hold your hand at arms length and make a 1/4 inch gap between your index finger and thumb. That is about the size of your view to the shooter for anyone beyond approx 100 ft.

The Stemmons sign would block the view of the Westbrook/Simmons group on N. Elm. The next group east, of about 11 people, would have a view to the shooter about one ft wide between the Stemmons sign and the Pyracantha bush. 

 Beyond the coverage the Knoll has another big advantage. The most vulnerable moment for the shooter is when they have to bring the rifle up above the fence and take time to track the limo and aim at it. But that is the moment virtually everyone is looking towards the motorcade and away from the shooter location. all these people came there and waited for their 20 second opportunity to see the president. I think it is a safe bet to assume almost every single person was looking to the motorcade.

At frame 313 the Moorman group would be looking toward the fence and may be able to see a flash from behind the tree.

I would guess that  everyone who saw JFK'S head explode would be absolutely stunned for a second or two. A gunman crouched a few inches above the fence could simultaneously pull the rifle back and step away and down in under two seconds. At that point he would be completely invisible to everyone.

 So again, I am not saying there was a gunman there. But if there was they had exceptionally good coverage. 

 

[Michael Crane]

South Knoll bro where Tosh heard the shot.Plenty of cover & where there might have been a fake Secret Service agent.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Chris Bristow writes:

Quote

It is really common to hear people who have been to the plaza remark about how small it actually is.

Wide-angle lenses do have the effect of making the plaza look noticeably larger on TV and in photos than it is in real life.

I explained to a British friend once that Dealey Plaza is roughly the size of Trafalgar Square in London. (For those readers who are not familiar with Trafalgar Square, it's roughly the size of Dealey Plaza.)

[David Josephs]

A Knoll shooter as seen in Moorman and described by Sam Holland

Colored on the left, this spot on the photo is neither tree nor fence as shown on the right.

as @Chris Bristow mentions: A gunman crouched a few inches above the fence could simultaneously pull the rifle back and step away and down in under two seconds. At that point he would be completely invisible to everyone.

In Moorman the shooter looks closer to the tree due to the angle at which Moorman was taking her photo. The more to the west one moves the more realistic the distance visually becomes.

FWIW

.        

Edited July 15, 2023 by David Josephs

[Chris Bristow]

15 hours ago, David Josephs said:

A Knoll shooter as seen in Moorman and described by Sam Holland

Colored on the left, this spot on the photo is neither tree nor fence as shown on the right.

as @Chris Bristow mentions: A gunman crouched a few inches above the fence could simultaneously pull the rifle back and step away and down in under two seconds. At that point he would be completely invisible to everyone.

In Moorman the shooter looks closer to the tree due to the angle at which Moorman was taking her photo. The more to the west one moves the more realistic the distance visually becomes.

FWIW

.        

The first time I mapped it out I put the shooter between the trees to match the prevailing theory including the footprints and Holland's account. The trees provided fairly good coverage but left a big gap for people on the overpass above Main St, up to the Franzen family.

I placed the shooter behind and right up against the first tree to see what the max coverage would be. I allow for the possibility that a shooter moved from the footprints to behind the tree for the actual shot. The Moorman photo does seem to show a figure between the trees and maybe a figures at the edge of the first tree. The Moorman photo is washed out to the point that much of the first tree is not visible so I am not fully confident of what all we can see there.

The evidence does point to the location between the trees as the more likely shooter location if there was anyone there at all. The Franzen family would need to look away from The motorcade by about 90 degrees to spot the shooter taking aim. Because the crowd would have been looking to the motorcade just prior to and during the head shot I think the more open location between the trees is still feasible.

 A shooter would have had the option to move closer to either tree depending on who might be looking his way and where witnesses were standing. In any case the trees provided more coverage than I had previously considered.

[Chris Bristow]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:22 AM, Michael Crane said:

South Knoll bro where Tosh heard the shot.Plenty of cover & where there might have been a fake Secret Service agent.

 

 

The only story of a fake SS agent I recall is DPD Smith's encounter on the Elm St extension near the SW corner of the TSBD, and Malcolm Summers "machine gun guy" at about the same location. But I do favor the South Knoll over the Grassy Knoll.

[David Josephs]

1 minute ago, Chris Bristow said:

The first time I mapped it out I put the shooter between the trees to match the prevailing theory including the footprints and Holland's account. The trees provided fairly good coverage but left a big gap for people on the overpass above Main St, up to the Franzen family.

I placed the shooter behind and right up against the first tree to see what the max coverage would be. I allow for the possibility that a shooter moved from the footprints to behind the tree for the actual shot. The Moorman photo does seem to show a figure between the trees and maybe a figures at the edge of the first tree. The Moorman photo is washed out to the point that much of the first tree is not visible so I am not fully confident of what all we can see there.

The evidence does point to the location between the trees as the more likely shooter location if there was anyone there at all. The Franzen family would need to look away from The motorcade by about 90 degrees to spot the shooter taking aim. Because the crowd would have been looking to the motorcade just prior to and during the head shot I think the more open location between the trees is still feasible.

 A shooter would have had the option to move closer to either tree depending on who might be looking his way and where witnesses were standing. In any case the trees provided more coverage than I had previously considered.

Thanks Chris...  I do need to ask, since we are talking about the knoll area...

The black couple that was said to have been sitting on the bench behind the retaining wall and that threw down the pop bottle... why is it we do not see their heads above the retaining wall?  There's the bench at the lower right... sitting there they both would have been obvious, no?  Or is Sitzman fibbing?

Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. And another thing that I remember this day: there was a colored couple. I figure they were between 18 and 21, a boy and a girl, sitting on a bench, just almost, oh, parallel with me, on my right side, close to the fence.
Thompson: In other words, between you and the fence, there's a tree right next to the ...
Sitzman: There's a tree, and there's another part of the marble or concrete, whatever they call it, slab, fence, whatever they call it, between that and the wooden fence.
Thompson: Which direction was the bench facing when you ...
Sitzman: It was facing towards the street.
Thompson: Towards the street. Parallel? Downstreet? Facing forward?
Sitzman: And they were eating their lunch, 'cause they had little lunch sacks, and they were drinking coke. The main reason I remember 'em is, after the last shot I recall hearing and the car went down under the triple underpass there, I heard a crash of glass, and I looked over there, and the kids had thrown down their coke bottles, just threw them down and just started running towards the back and I ... Of course, I don't see anything unusual in that because everybody else was running that way, 'cause when I look over on my left side, the people on the hill were all running back the same way too.

[Chris Bristow]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Thanks Chris...  I do need to ask, since we are talking about the knoll area...

The black couple that was said to have been sitting on the bench behind the retaining wall and that threw down the pop bottle... why is it we do not see their heads above the retaining wall?  There's the bench at the lower right... sitting there they both would have been obvious, no?  Or is Sitzman fibbing?

Sitzman: Some ran ... I mean ... I finally got back up to the alcove. There was bunches of people just swarming back there, and I think almost everybody on that hill ran back up that way. And another thing that I remember this day: there was a colored couple. I figure they were between 18 and 21, a boy and a girl, sitting on a bench, just almost, oh, parallel with me, on my right side, close to the fence.
Thompson: In other words, between you and the fence, there's a tree right next to the ...
Sitzman: There's a tree, and there's another part of the marble or concrete, whatever they call it, slab, fence, whatever they call it, between that and the wooden fence.
Thompson: Which direction was the bench facing when you ...
Sitzman: It was facing towards the street.
Thompson: Towards the street. Parallel? Downstreet? Facing forward?
Sitzman: And they were eating their lunch, 'cause they had little lunch sacks, and they were drinking coke. The main reason I remember 'em is, after the last shot I recall hearing and the car went down under the triple underpass there, I heard a crash of glass, and I looked over there, and the kids had thrown down their coke bottles, just threw them down and just started running towards the back and I ... Of course, I don't see anything unusual in that because everybody else was running that way, 'cause when I look over on my left side, the people on the hill were all running back the same way too.

I could only guess as to why they don't show up in Willis 5.  Maybe they reflect enough light to fade into the blotchy grey scale pattern of the fence behind them. Can't say how much the head might be turned towards the light or how much is in shadow.

BDM seems strangely dark but what might be his face is a fairly light shade of grey that is not too far off the background.

It is possible the camera just did not pick them up.

[Michael Crane]

18 hours ago, Chris Bristow said:

The only story of a fake SS agent I recall is DPD Smith's encounter on the Elm St extension near the SW corner of the TSBD, and Malcolm Summers "machine gun guy" at about the same location. But I do favor the South Knoll over the Grassy Knoll.

Correct,but you need someone to clear the area,so you need a fake Secret Service guy/LEO to handle the job.

Rumor has it that Chauncey Holt was there to pass out fake Secret Service credentials.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Michael Crane

[Ron Bulman]

A knoll shooter(s) would be virtually invisible.  Think about it.  Only from the nose or cheek area sticking above the fence, what five-six inches, for what thirty seconds or so.  With all attention focused on JFK, not the GK top of the picket fence under the live oaks.  Spotter.  He's here as they turn on to Houston.  Shooter pops up with rifle as they turn onto Elm, sights in, boom, ducks, throws gun into open trunk (never searched-any of them), walks away.

While I'm wildly speculating can anyone handle two shots from the GK?  The first, throat shot, came from the front.  An accepted fact for some given Malcom Perry and hands to the throat in the Zapruder film.  Then, back and to the left is from the right front.  I'm no physicist, but pretty basic.

[Michael Crane]

There was a women witness that heard or saw shots "coming from the bushes"

[Chris Bristow]

4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

A knoll shooter(s) would be virtually invisible.  Think about it.  Only from the nose or cheek area sticking above the fence, what five-six inches, for what thirty seconds or so.  With all attention focused on JFK, not the GK top of the picket fence under the live oaks.  Spotter.  He's here as they turn on to Houston.  Shooter pops up with rifle as they turn onto Elm, sights in, boom, ducks, throws gun into open trunk (never searched-any of them), walks away.

While I'm wildly speculating can anyone handle two shots from the GK?  The first, throat shot, came from the front.  An accepted fact for some given Malcom Perry and hands to the throat in the Zapruder film.  Then, back and to the left is from the right front.  I'm no physicist, but pretty basic.

The 5 ft stake fence is definitely providing almost complete coverage.  And all those other factors like ducking and placing the gun in a car trunk in less than 2 seconds, with most people looking away in those moments puts a shooter in a very good position. If there was no shooter there they missed the opportunity of a lifetime..

The angle from the fence to a throat shot  at frame 209 to 224 would be about 30 degrees. That bullet would exit around JFK'S  jugular vein on his left side.  It does not square with any of the CT or LN versions and makes question a knoll throat shot.

[Chris Bristow]

3 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

There was a women witness that heard or saw shots "coming from the bushes"

A woman in front of the TSBD told officer J. Smith people were shooting from the bushes in the general area of the colonnade or west of it.  Smith then encountered the SS I.D. guy in that approx area.  Possibly at about the same time and place we see the Silhouette guy in the Bothun photo.

[Michael Griffith]

On 7/16/2023 at 2:51 AM, Chris Bristow said:

I could only guess as to why they don't show up in Willis 5.  Maybe they reflect enough light to fade into the blotchy grey scale pattern of the fence behind them. Can't say how much the head might be turned towards the light or how much is in shadow.

BDM seems strangely dark but what might be his face is a fairly light shade of grey that is not too far off the background.

It is possible the camera just did not pick them up.

The HSCA photographic experts detected in the Willis photos a human figure behind the knoll with a straight-line object apparently in his hands. That is as far as they would go.

[David Josephs]

35 minutes ago, Michael Griffith said:

HSCA photographic experts

That's an oxymoron. @James DiEugenio