Larry Hancock and David Attlee Phillips

[Larry Hancock]

Phillips was certainly a person of interest for the HSCA - Fonzi was all over him for various reasons and certainly Phillips felt the pressure.  Generally speaking, when pressured Phillips was aggressive in his response, more than willing to push back.  This article gives you a feel for that, and the AMLASH legacy might have represented a veiled threat to expose a number of things and people just in case things got more tense:

https://www.jfk-online.com/dapcolumbia.html

 

[Eddy Bainbridge]

Larry has got my brain whirring on Phillips. His attack on Morales is remarkable, and very hard to see as a CIA favourable spin operation. Comparing his actions with alleged ' limited hangout' of Hunt makes the idea he was defensive in his own actions more plausible. Was Phillips unhappy at the JFKA? Did his objectives differ? 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Eddy Bainbridge

[Larry Hancock]

Its easy to find reason to suspect that Phillips was very much aware of Oswald, was involved in propaganda operations built on the image Oswald had developed for himself in New Orleans and that he lied about Oswald being "not even on the radar" in Mexico City.  Its also pretty obvious that he jumped on the bandwagon with the story that Oswald was paid to kill Kennedy by the Cubans - Phillips was desperately anti-Castro - and tried to promote that immediately after the assassination. He also supported that scenario in multiple books (but that really was a stupid story, way below his standards so its hard not to see it as just a pick up play rather than something well planned and put in place before the fact).

But none of that puts him directly into a plot to kill the president - however its unclear how much he trusted his fellow CIA officers (he was never really part of an old boy HQ CIA clique or and operations clique - he had come on board from being a contract employee) and by the time the HSCA came into play he may very well have figured that he might become disposable (ala Hunt). I have no problem at all seeing Phillips performing preemptive moves or firing a shot across the bow to protect himself. 

[Joe Bauer]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:33 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Forgive my muddled mind.  How might this relate to shall we say two cigarettes in the ashtray at the HSCA and his walking out on them?  Was it Lopez who wanted to file charges on him but Blakey ignored it? 

When Phillips just up and walked out of hearing in the middle of his being questioned I also felt great suspicion about that event.

Even more so when there was absolutely no action taken on the part of the hearing panel to have him brought back in and/or to charge him with contempt.

In my mind, Phillip's aggressive "F*** Y**" walk out with no repercussions was a power play that revealed Phillip's arrogant mind set that he was way above the rules of this weak entity committee and embarrassingly depicted this to be the case.

 

 

[Joe Bauer]

I assume there isn't much direct evidence or first-hand testimony information about Phillip's brother's deep animosity toward him.

What was the general explanation for their estrangement?

Pretty bad when a brother is at his dying brother's bedside and he still doesn't express any brotherly love forgiveness and only wants to know if the dying brother was in Dallas on 11,22,1963?

If that story is true it could suggest that Phillip's brother was truly believing DAP had something to do with JFK's murder and his sense of highest importance humanity morality overrode any forgiving brotherly love?

What's the thing with Phillips and Hunt writing their fictional but suspected coded truth revealing spy books?

They were literate men who probably enjoyed writing and were pretty good at it to boot.

But strictly spy subject mostly?

Were they thinking they might possibly break into the super lucrative "Ian Fleming" big money JAMES BOND spy novel echelon with possibly even more big money movie deals?

Writing stories based on their highest level spy craft and personal experiences in such sounds kind of risky on their part imo.

Might they reveal a little too much about certain secret events and high level individuals involved?

Phillips even wrote about an assassination plot?

Or, did they receive guaranteed advances from selected publishers for their books which has so often been referred to as a kind of laundered side income or even payoff system?

Hillary Clinton was paid an enormous up-front sum for her book.

George W. Bush got what $10 MILLION for his memoirs? A book he didn't even write? It was written by one or more ghost writers.

So many other politicians, same thing.

Enormous after office speaking fees make more millions. I've long ago became convinced that gig was and always has been an obvious pay-off one.

Oswald's trip to Mexico City is the Rosetta Stone of conspiracy for many believers that Oswald was influenced and/or used by others.

It was so suspiciously illogical.

What is an unemployed, failed family providing nobody with not even a residence doing taking such a provocative intrigue trip like that ( and that must have cost more than a month's rent) at a time when his pregnant wife and child are only surviving by the total needs providing efforts of an outside person who he personally greatly dislikes and even resents?

The entire Mexico City adventure reeks of sheep dipping patsy set up intrigue.

But by whom? And for what over-all motive? 

Did DAP write that tale?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Mervyn Hagger]

26 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

I assume there isn't much direct evidence or first-hand testimony information about Phillip's brother's deep animosity toward him.

What was the general explanation for their estrangement?

Pretty bad when a brother is at his dying brother's bedside and he still doesn't express any brotherly love forgiveness and only wants to know if the dying brother was in Dallas on 11,22,1963?

If that story is true it could suggest that Phillip's brother was truly believing DAP had something to do with JFK's murder and his sense of highest importance humanity morality overrode any forgiving brotherly love?

What's the thing with Phillips and Hunt writing their fictional but suspected coded truth revealing spy books?

They were literate men who probably enjoyed writing and were pretty good at it to boot.

But strictly spy subject mostly?

Were they thinking they might possibly break into the super lucrative "Ian Fleming" big money JAMES BOND spy novel echelon with possibly even more big money movie deals?

Writing stories based on their highest level spy craft and personal experiences in such sounds kind of risky on their part imo.

Might they reveal a little too much about certain secret events and high level individuals involved?

Phillips even wrote about an assassination plot?

Or, did they receive guaranteed advances from selected publishers for their books which has so often been referred to as a kind of laundered side income or even payoff system?

Hillary Clinton was paid an enormous up-front sum for her book.

George W. Bush got what $10 MILLION for his memoirs? A book he didn't even write? It was written by one or more ghost writers.

So many other politicians, same thing.

Enormous after office speaking fees make more millions. I've long ago became convinced that gig was and always has been an obvious pay-off one.

Oswald's trip to Mexico City is the Rosetta Stone of conspiracy for many believers that Oswald was influenced and/or used by others.

It was so suspiciously illogical.

What is an unemployed, failed family providing nobody with not even a residence doing taking such a provocative intrigue trip like that ( and that must have cost more than a month's rent) at a time when his pregnant wife and child are only surviving by the total needs providing efforts of an outside person who he personally greatly dislikes and even resents?

The entire Mexico City adventure reeks of sheep dipping patsy set up intrigue.

But by whom? And for what over-all motive? 

Did DAP write that tale?

 

 

 

 

Occam's Razor responds: Marcello! Motive, means, money.

[Larry Hancock]

Just to be contrarian I don't see Mexico City as important in establishing an image for Oswald - by the time he left New Orleans he had been on radio, the newspapers, in Court and on TV as an activist Castro supporter.  I've not been able to make much of an impression with the fact that we have learned the DRE was heavily propagandizing  that in Miami in late August and September - including letters on Oswald to different exile groups and was even writing to Congress about Oswald as  a perfect example of evil Cuban influence. I'm afraid a lot of Jeff Moreley's great work is not getting really registered - including confirmation from DRE senior officers that they were happy to be leveraging Oswald in propaganda as they is what the CIA was paying them to do. 

We also know that a record was being made that fall for use in propaganda against Castro based on his visibility in NO, it was ready for distribution at the time of the assassination and that INCA had a whole campaign built around it (possibly with Phillips support) and there were other elements of a campaign ready and in progress ( lay this all out in Tipping Point).  Phillips had already prepared one of his private news sources for the story on Oswald as linked to Cuba and Russia - and on the day of the assassination reporters were being referred to him by AP. You did not need Mexico City to produce the newspaper headlines I put on the front of Tipping Point - if anything there had to be a lot of work to quickly shift the media away from the Cuba/Castro headline and  to a lone nut image. 

[Leslie Sharp]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Just to be contrarian I don't see Mexico City as important in establishing an image for Oswald - by the time he left New Orleans he had been on radio, the newspapers, in Court and on TV as an activist Castro supporter.  I've not been able to make much of an impression with the fact that we have learned the DRE was heavily propagandizing  that in Miami in late August and September - including letters on Oswald to different exile groups and was even writing to Congress about Oswald as  a perfect example of evil Cuban influence. I'm afraid a lot of Jeff Moreley's great work is not getting really registered - including confirmation from DRE senior officers that they were happy to be leveraging Oswald in propaganda as they is what the CIA was paying them to do. 

We also know that a record was being made that fall for use in propaganda against Castro based on his visibility in NO, it was ready for distribution at the time of the assassination and that INCA had a whole campaign built around it (possibly with Phillips support) and there were other elements of a campaign ready and in progress ( lay this all out in Tipping Point).  Phillips had already prepared one of his private news sources for the story on Oswald as linked to Cuba and Russia - and on the day of the assassination reporters were being referred to him by AP. You did not need Mexico City to produce the newspaper headlines I put on the front of Tipping Point - if anything there had to be a lot of work to quickly shift the media away from the Cuba/Castro headline and  to a lone nut image. 

Excellent points, Larry.

So, if Oswald was in fact in Mexico City — not to establish an image but for something else entirely — would you venture what that something else might have been?

And is your most recent, perhaps final, word on AMWORLD posted on your website?

[Jonathan Cohen]

50 minutes ago, Leslie Sharp said:

So, if Oswald was in fact in Mexico City — not to establish an image but for something else entirely — would you venture what that something else might have been?

Exactly what he told Cuban and Russian officials during the trip - to obtain a visa to return to the Soviet Union.

[Larry Hancock]

First, I would say Oswald was in Mexico City in the hopes of getting a travel visa to enter Cuba, based on a hardship claim for his wife and the argument that he was as a supporter of the Cuban revolution - which is why it took considerable support material with him and why he showed a good bit of it to Duran.  He was well aware of the travel barrier he faced with the Russians, giving he had been making the case primarily for Marina since the first of the year and had been told as recently as July no permission would be granted until  after the birth of their new baby. 

I make no claim to be able to get inside his head but he had success with convincing the Soviets on matters before, while being a pain to them in both entering and leaving Russia; perhaps he thought the Cubans would be easier to wear down or perhaps more sympathetic.  Given his experience with Soviet bureaucracy he also may have thought he might have more luck going to a relatively small Russian diplomatic unit (as he had done before) where they might respond more to a personal appeal - at least getting something he could use to show the Cubans that would get him as far as Cuba, even if no further.  We have taken for granted he was aware of the Cuban rule about transit visas but that was a relatively new thing (after the missile crisis in late 1062) and its possible that their solid stand on that was a surprise to him. From his reading I suspect he would have known that Americans did travel through Mexico to Cuba.

Second, no not at all, my web site is woefully old and after having it hacked twice we have made no further attempt to update it, what I learned about AMWORLD as an operation is largely in Shadow Warfare, but in terms of associated personnel is extended in the Wheaton Leads monograph, the book In Denial, and in Tipping Point. 

[Joe Bauer]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Just to be contrarian I don't see Mexico City as important in establishing an image for Oswald - by the time he left New Orleans he had been on radio, the newspapers, in Court and on TV as an activist Castro supporter.  I've not been able to make much of an impression with the fact that we have learned the DRE was heavily propagandizing  that in Miami in late August and September - including letters on Oswald to different exile groups and was even writing to Congress about Oswald as  a perfect example of evil Cuban influence. I'm afraid a lot of Jeff Moreley's great work is not getting really registered - including confirmation from DRE senior officers that they were happy to be leveraging Oswald in propaganda as they is what the CIA was paying them to do. 

We also know that a record was being made that fall for use in propaganda against Castro based on his visibility in NO, it was ready for distribution at the time of the assassination and that INCA had a whole campaign built around it (possibly with Phillips support) and there were other elements of a campaign ready and in progress ( lay this all out in Tipping Point).  Phillips had already prepared one of his private news sources for the story on Oswald as linked to Cuba and Russia - and on the day of the assassination reporters were being referred to him by AP. You did not need Mexico City to produce the newspaper headlines I put on the front of Tipping Point - if anything there had to be a lot of work to quickly shift the media away from the Cuba/Castro headline and to a lone nut image. 

Your assessment makes more sense regards any patsy sheep dipping than my Mexico City one.

[Joe Bauer]

Has anyone found any more information about DAP's brother than what is generally posted about him?

Why would he carry such a deep grudge for DAP, even to the point of no death bed kindness?

What did DAP do that would justify his brother disliking ( even hating ) him to that degree?

[Leslie Sharp]

18 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

First, I would say Oswald was in Mexico City in the hopes of getting a travel visa to enter Cuba, based on a hardship claim for his wife and the argument that he was as a supporter of the Cuban revolution - which is why it took considerable support material with him and why he showed a good bit of it to Duran.  He was well aware of the travel barrier he faced with the Russians, giving he had been making the case primarily for Marina since the first of the year and had been told as recently as July no permission would be granted until  after the birth of their new baby. 

I make no claim to be able to get inside his head but he had success with convincing the Soviets on matters before, while being a pain to them in both entering and leaving Russia; perhaps he thought the Cubans would be easier to wear down or perhaps more sympathetic.  Given his experience with Soviet bureaucracy he also may have thought he might have more luck going to a relatively small Russian diplomatic unit (as he had done before) where they might respond more to a personal appeal - at least getting something he could use to show the Cubans that would get him as far as Cuba, even if no further.  We have taken for granted he was aware of the Cuban rule about transit visas but that was a relatively new thing (after the missile crisis in late 1062) and its possible that their solid stand on that was a surprise to him. From his reading I suspect he would have known that Americans did travel through Mexico to Cuba.

Second, no not at all, my web site is woefully old and after having it hacked twice we have made no further attempt to update it, what I learned about AMWORLD as an operation is largely in Shadow Warfare, but in terms of associated personnel is extended in the Wheaton Leads monograph, the book In Denial, and in Tipping Point. 

Thanks for this summary. Presumably then, if Oswald was being guided to Mexico City he was totally oblivious of the fact and believed himself to be in control of his destiny?

RE. AMWORLD, and setting aside your respectful skepticism of the Lafitte datebook, I had reason to ask you about the possibility —hypothetically speaking of course — that meetings in New Orleans in August involving in some manner George Joannides, Charlie Siragusa, George Hunter White, and JC King could have been related to AMWORLD. You indicated that by then King was head of the Western Division in name only and (if I understood correctly) the now infamous operation wasn't actually a serious plan to re-invade Cuba from Haiti.  Had it been, why didn't the invasion ensue within weeks or at least months of Kennedy's assassination? Instead, Johnson turned his eye toward VN and abandoned Cuba altogether?

Edited August 27, 2023 by Leslie Sharp

[Larry Hancock]

In regard to Oswald, yes I think he was working his own personal agenda in Mexico.  What might have been going on separately from either lies with CIA sanctioned operations or the Cuban exile contacts with him that we describe in the Red Bird leads.

As far as AMWOLD goes, we have the list of officers and staff personnel involved with it including extended details on purchasing, funding and the logistics activities that were being set up during late 1963, the plans were very specific and involved a maritime base in the Caribbean as well as secret aircraft transit bases in Mexico arranged covertly with the Mexican government.  We know the location of the Caribbean base and the details about setting it up, which did not come about until well into 1963 due to purchasing and logistics issues.

King was certainly head of the Western Division but my reference to "in name only" relates to the Cuba project, otherwise he was in touch with things in 63, as with his involvement in TILT.  However in regard to AMWORLD, a totally offshore, deniable operation he was not really in the loop, that was run by Fitzgerald and a highly compartmentalized group of only a handful  of officers with Hecksher and Jenkins leading. 

As to AMWORLD, it was not at all an invasion plan (unfortunately Lamar got that wrong) but a plan simply to launch maritime raids and reestablish Artime as a military  figure, optimistically available to support the coup efforts of AMTRUNK and AMWHIP.  His boat operations were in no way ready to proceed until late spring 64, a matter of setting up a base and supplying it and putting all the pieces in place covertly.

I don't recall anything going on with AMWORLD that would have involved New Orleans, in 63 or 64.  Actually Johnson did not give up on AMWORLD immediately, he allowed it to run on over the next two years until it died its own death through media exposure, in the end by sinking the wrong freighter off Cuba. That story is in Shadow Warfare too.

 

 

[Ron Bulman]

Wow.  I should re-read this and post tomorrow.  It's deep.  Might Oswald have been looking for a way out of it all from back to the USA to near the end for him and Marina?  Kooky brainstorming, doesn't stick to the wall?