Billy Lovelady is NOT leaning over (much) in Altgens 6.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Just to be clear: in the 1970s, Robert Groden photographed Lovelady wearing the same plaid shirt he wore to work on 11/22/1963.

 

If you'd read what I posted earlier and paid attention, you'd know that the shirt Lovelady wore for Groden was not the same shirt that is shown in the Martin film. Lovelady's shirt doesn't have a pocket.... the one worn by the guy in the Martin film does have a  pocket.

I explained why that is the case in my earlier post. (My earlier post is, of course, a hypothesis. But it does neatly and logically explain the anomalies.)

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

So, let me get this straight. It is your claim that the man in the red/plaid shirt at bottom right above is NOT Billy Lovelady?

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

So, let me get this straight. It is your claim that the man in the red/plaid shirt at bottom right above is NOT Billy Lovelady?

 

That's right.

Billy Lovelady had long been inside the building by the time that film was taken.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That's right.

Billy Lovelady had long been inside the building by the time that film was taken.

And you claim this in spite of the fact that Loveladly himself identified himself as the man in the red/plaid shirt during his HSCA testimony?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=99803#relPageId=2&tab=page

[Sandy Larsen]

7 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

And you claim this in spite of the fact that Loveladly himself identified himself as the man in the red/plaid shirt during his HSCA testimony?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=99803#relPageId=2&tab=page

 

Lovelady lied about the shirt, which is proven by the fact that the one in his possession doesn't have a pocket. He lied about waiting on the TSBD step for three minutes, till Gloria Calvery arrived, and about walking to the railroad yard and into the west end of the TSBD to witness Victoria Adams coming down the steps, which is proven by the Darnell/Wiegman films.

These things have to do with the fabricated second-floor encounter between Oswald and Officer Baker.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Lovelady lied about the shirt, which is proven by the fact that the one in his possession doesn't have a pocket. He lied about waiting on the TSBD step for three minutes, till Gloria Calvery arrived, and about walking to the railroad yard and into the west end of the TSBD to witness Victoria Adams coming down the steps, which is proven by the Darnell/Wiegman films.

These things have to do with the fabricated second-floor encounter between Oswald and Officer Baker.

Uh uh .. so he just happened to have in his possession the IDENTICAL shirt he was wearing on Nov. 22, 1963 and identified himself as wearing it on multiple occasions, but according to you, it was all a part of a big old years-long lie that he repeated to journalists and investigators until his death? Where do you come up with this complete nonsense? It's embarrassing.

[Sean Coleman]

Welcome to Pocketgate. You decide

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sean Coleman

[Jonathan Cohen]

6 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

Welcome to Pocketgate. You decide

Sean, do you also believe that the man wearing the red/plaid shirt in the Martin film frame is NOT Billy Lovelady?

[Sandy Larsen]

54 minutes ago, Jonathan Cohen said:

Uh uh .. so he just happened to have in his possession the IDENTICAL shirt he was wearing on Nov. 22, 1963 and identified himself as wearing it on multiple occasions, but according to you, it was all a part of a big old years-long lie that he repeated to journalists and investigators until his death? Where do you come up with this complete nonsense? It's embarrassing.

 

This topic is beyond your comprehension level.

 

[Jonathan Cohen]

27 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This topic is beyond your comprehension level.

Clearly yours as well!

[Pat Speer]

1 hour ago, Sean Coleman said:

Welcome to Pocketgate. You decide

Thanks, Sean. I knew this pocket stuff had been exposed as nonsense long ago, and right here on this forum. 

[Ron Ege]

From the link - credit John Simkin, Oct. 20, 2004:

" . . . . According to a memo written by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to the Warren Commission after Lovelady had been interviewed and photographed in 1964 by FBI agents, Lovelady was reported to have been wearing a short-sleeved red and white, vertically striped shirt. The FBI claimed that he had been photographed in the clothes that he wore on the day of the assassination.

The House Select Committee on Assassinations looked into this issue:

A widely publicized photograph taken by Associated Press photographer James W. Altgens within a few seconds after President Kennedy was first shot shows a spectator who bears a strong physical resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald standing at the west end of the Texas School Book Depository entranceway. Altgens has stated that he took the picture of the presidential limousine, with the Texas School Book Depository entranceway in the background, just after he heard a noise "which sounded like the popping of a firecracker."

Warren Commission critics have charged that there was insufficient basis for this conclusion, and have faulted the Commission for presenting " no supporting visual evidence by which one can appraise the resemblance between Lovelady and the man in the doorway, or Lovelady and Oswald, although nothing less hangs on the accurate identification of the doorway man than Oswald's possible total innocence of the assassination".

This issue has also persisted because of reported discrepancies in connection with the clothing worn by the Altgens figure and Billy Lovelady on November 22, 1963. In media prints of the Altgens photograph, the man appears to be wearing a long-sleeved shirt similar to the one in which Oswald was arrested.

The HSCA went on to argue: Lovelady later explained that when he was interviewed and photographed by the FBI, he had not been told to wear the same shirt he had worn on the day of the assassination and that, in fact, he had been wearing a long-sleeved, plaid shirt when he was standing in the Texas School Book Depository doorway.

Lovelady did not appear to be asked about the shirt he was wearing on the day of the assassination by the Warren Commission. According to Michael Benson, Lovelady said he was wearing a red and white stripped shirt. However, the HSCA claimed he was wearing a plaid shirt. Unfortunately, Lovelady was not able to confirm this as he died just before the publication of the HSCA report. He died of a heart-attack aged 42 in January, 1979."

 

And wasn't there a thread which posited that BL's plaid shirt, in which he posed for the picture, was, perhaps, remade from the same material as the alleged original?

Was that the genesis of the pocket-no pocket discussion?

 

 

[Pat Speer]

12 minutes ago, Ron Ege said:

From the link - credit John Simkin, Oct. 20, 2004:

" . . . . According to a memo written by FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover to the Warren Commission after Lovelady had been interviewed and photographed in 1964 by FBI agents, Lovelady was reported to have been wearing a short-sleeved red and white, vertically striped shirt. The FBI claimed that he had been photographed in the clothes that he wore on the day of the assassination.

The House Select Committee on Assassinations looked into this issue:

A widely publicized photograph taken by Associated Press photographer James W. Altgens within a few seconds after President Kennedy was first shot shows a spectator who bears a strong physical resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald standing at the west end of the Texas School Book Depository entranceway. Altgens has stated that he took the picture of the presidential limousine, with the Texas School Book Depository entranceway in the background, just after he heard a noise "which sounded like the popping of a firecracker."

Warren Commission critics have charged that there was insufficient basis for this conclusion, and have faulted the Commission for presenting " no supporting visual evidence by which one can appraise the resemblance between Lovelady and the man in the doorway, or Lovelady and Oswald, although nothing less hangs on the accurate identification of the doorway man than Oswald's possible total innocence of the assassination".

This issue has also persisted because of reported discrepancies in connection with the clothing worn by the Altgens figure and Billy Lovelady on November 22, 1963. In media prints of the Altgens photograph, the man appears to be wearing a long-sleeved shirt similar to the one in which Oswald was arrested.

The HSCA went on to argue: Lovelady later explained that when he was interviewed and photographed by the FBI, he had not been told to wear the same shirt he had worn on the day of the assassination and that, in fact, he had been wearing a long-sleeved, plaid shirt when he was standing in the Texas School Book Depository doorway.

Lovelady did not appear to be asked about the shirt he was wearing on the day of the assassination by the Warren Commission. According to Michael Benson, Lovelady said he was wearing a red and white stripped shirt. However, the HSCA claimed he was wearing a plaid shirt. Unfortunately, Lovelady was not able to confirm this as he died just before the publication of the HSCA report. He died of a heart-attack aged 42 in January, 1979."

 

And wasn't there a thread which posited that BL's plaid shirt, in which he posed for the picture, was, perhaps, remade from the same material as the alleged original?

Was that the genesis of the pocket-no pocket discussion?

 

 

While Groden may be prone to flights of fancy, he debunked all the crud about the shirt 30 years ago, in The Killing of a President. A dozen years ago or so, right here on this forum, a couple of characters tried to resurrect the shirt confusion so they could claim it was Oswald on the steps all along, and that Lovelady's face was super-imposed on Oswald's body by the CIA, which had a top secret photo alteration lab in the parking lot by the TSBD. 

[Jonathan Cohen]

56 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

While Groden may be prone to flights of fancy, he debunked all the crud about the shirt 30 years ago, in The Killing of a President. A dozen years ago or so, right here on this forum, a couple of characters tried to resurrect the shirt confusion so they could claim it was Oswald on the steps all along, and that Lovelady's face was super-imposed on Oswald's body by the CIA, which had a top secret photo alteration lab in the parking lot by the TSBD. 

Great. So Sandy Larsen is, in fact, totally wrong.

[Sean Coleman]

On 10/16/2023 at 2:11 PM, Jonathan Cohen said:

Sean, do you also believe that the man wearing the red/plaid shirt in the Martin film frame is NOT Billy Lovelady?

I think it’s him, I think I see a pocket and I think I see Lovelady & Shelley walking away  to the rail yard highlighted by Gerda Dunkel…

 

Plaid-ish shirt, unfortunate hair - Lovelady?

Teddy boy quiff hair - Shelley?

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sean Coleman