Billy Lovelady is NOT leaning over (much) in Altgens 6.

[Sandy Larsen]

41 minutes ago, Pat Speer said:

Ok. So you're doubling down. But to what end? Those pushing this stuff in the past thought it was all part of an effort to conceal that it was Oswald on the steps, not Lovelady. But you don't believe that. 

So please explain why you think this makes sense. Apparently, you take your failure to recognize photos of what most everyone agrees is Lovelady as Lovelady as an important breakthrough. You don't know who it is. You don't know why Lovelady's being impersonated. But you feel certain it isn't him. Help us make sense of this. 

 

Over the years, a number of people have pointed out anomalies they could not explained. And yet their evidence clearly showed they were right. For example, that the plaid shirt in the films had a pocket whereas the shirt in Billy Lovelady's possession doesn't. (At least not one in the correct location.)

Every now and then I'd mull over these anomalies and try to make sense of them. I finally figured out a reasonable explanation. Problem is, in order to make my theory work, I'd have to show that Lovelady's left sleeve in Altgens 6 didn't really have a plaid pattern. (I was already convinced that the sleeve had no plaid because it is too long to be Lovelady's, and in fact it is really Carl Jones's arm and hand.)

Then recently, forum members began posting increasingly higher-quality copies of the Altgens 6 photos. They all show for a fact that the sleeve (or arm) has no plaid pattern.

All I really wanted to do with this thread is to show everybody, Hey! Lovelady's so-called sleeve is really Carl Jones's arm and hand. Unfortunately for me, the direction of the discussion forced me to bring up the other related anomalies. I hadn't wanted to do that at this time.

But I have changed my mind and am now writing a brief summary of my theory and how it explains the anomalies.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Sandy:

it is not possible to determine from any of Altgens6 copies if Lovelady's shirt had a pocket or not owing to the distance between Altgens's camera and Lovelady, the limited resolution of digitised copies, and incomplete view of Lovelady's shirt. A checkered pattern of comparatively lighter and darker rectangles cannot be resolved fully in Altgens6 owing to the insufficient resolution causing a phenomenon of aliasing - basically the apperance of blurred, irregular texture of darker and lighter spots due to inadeguate sampling of a regular plaid pattern. There is no enigma here.

It is irrelevant what shirt did Lovelady bring for his FBI photographic session, or what shirt did he show to Robert Groden. It may all be a ruse; it was so convenient to the official version to constantly ruminate Lovelady in the doorway as a man resembling Lee Oswald. This certainly helped to distract attention from that other man standing in the shadow of the western wall of the doorway, you know who I am talking about.

You are an astute and well versed researcher in JFKA case, and this thread does not contribute to such profile of yours.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

it is not possible to determine from any of Altgens6 copies if Lovelady's shirt had a pocket or not owing to the distance between Altgens's camera and Lovelady, the limited resolution of digitised copies, and incomplete view of Lovelady's shirt.

 

Andrej,

What are you talking about? Nobody has suggested anything about seeing or not seeing a pocket in Lovelady's shirt in Altgens 6. We obviously cannot see his pocket because his buttoned-down shirt is so far opened that its pocket is blocked from being viewed.

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

A checkered pattern of comparatively lighter and darker rectangles cannot be resolved fully in Altgens6 owing to the insufficient resolution causing a phenomenon of aliasing - basically the apperance of blurred, irregular texture of darker and lighter spots due to inadeguate sampling of a regular plaid pattern. There is no enigma here.

 

If you are saying that we are unable to see a real plaid pattern in the Altgens 6 shirt, then you agree with me. (By "real" I mean a pattern that did not appear merely as a result of scanning, A/D sampling, and other related processes.)

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

It is irrelevant what shirt did Lovelady bring for his FBI photographic session, or what shirt did he show to Robert Groden. It may all be a ruse; it was so convenient to the official version to constantly ruminate Lovelady in the doorway as a man resembling Lee Oswald. This certainly helped to distract attention from that other man standing in the shadow of the western wall of the doorway, you know who I am talking about.

 

Uh.... you know, don't you, that I believe Prayer Man is very likely Oswald?

This thread has nothing to do with Prayer Man or Oswald. I brought it to your attention only because in your model of Altgens 6 you have Lovelady with an arm that isn't supported by the best of Altgens 6 photos. It is obvious to me that that is Carl Jones's arm and hand. I'm surprised it isn't obvious to you too.

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

You are an astute and well versed researcher in JFKA case, and this thread does not contribute to such profile of yours.

 

Well, I don't think you know what I've been saying here.

 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Sandy Larsen writes:

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A profile comparison of the so-called Lovelady in the Hughes and Martin film looks nothing like the real Lovelady.... different shaped heads and ears, for example.

I'd like to see that demonstrated. There are several images of Lovelady on page 187 of Robert Groden's The Killing of A President, and they all look like the same person to me.

Not only that, but Groden's version of Lovelady's left sleeve in Altgens 6 is clearer than any of the versions posted here, and the rectangular pattern is visible (see page 186; Groden claims that he made his copy from the original negative). This fact alone refutes Sandy's argument. As I pointed out earlier, it's a mistake to read too much into trivial discrepancies in poor-quality copies of images.

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The so-called Lovelady has a spinal condition, whereas the real Lovelady doesn't.

Again, this needs to be demonstrated, ideally by someone with relevant medical qualifications (self-taught forensic dentistry doesn't count), and not merely asserted. An alternative explanation, admittedly far-fetched, is that Lovelady was bending forward at one time and standing upright at another time.

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Lovelady had already gone back inside the TSBD and was blocked from going back outside by the the time the so-called Lovelady appears in the Hughes and Martin films.

How can we be certain that Lovelady had gone inside by the time someone who looks remarkably like him was filmed outside by Hughes and Martin? If there's a conflict between recollections from after the event and a photographic record of the event, surely the most reasonable conclusion is that the recollections were mistaken, as recollections often are.

There's another point that has already been brought up: if the person who was filmed outside the book depository and inside the police station wasn't Lovelady (despite having the same balding hairline and a shirt with the same pattern on the sleeves), then who might it have been? It seems like a remarkable coincidence, doesn't it?

Was it a deliberate impersonation? If so, why? And where might this Lovelady impersonator have been during the assassination? Presumably he would have been somewhere in Dealey Plaza. There are plenty of images of the crowd taken at around the time Altgens shows Lovelady on the steps. Do any of these home movies and photos show this Lovelady lookalike? If not, where was he?

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The plaid shirt showed of by the real Lovelady doesn't have a pocket, whereas the plaid shirt worn by the so-called Lovelady in Hughes/Martin does have a pocket.

What is the most reasonable conclusion that we can draw from this? That the pocket was removed at some point during the intervening 13 years, or that Lovelady acquired or already possessed a similar shirt that lacked a pocket, or that the CIA's fake clothing department (domestic assassination branch) rustled up the wrong shirt by mistake?

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I know that you you, like Pat Speer, have a tendency to sweep inconvenient evidence under the rug rather than deal with it.

Looking for reasonable explanations isn't the same thing as ignoring inconvenient evidence.

This conspiratorial storm in a teacup illustrates what can happen when people place too much trust in trivial discrepancies in poor-quality images. We've seen this over the years with the Zapruder film, photos of Oswald, and now images of Billy Lovelady.

I don't know whether Groden's The Killing of A President is still available, but I'd advise Sandy to try to get hold of a copy and check the close-up of Lovelady in Altgens 6 on page 186. The pattern on the sleeve matches the pattern on the rest of the shirt. This thread really is a lot of fuss about nothing.

[Sandy Larsen]

45 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Quote

A profile comparison of the so-called Lovelady in the Hughes and Martin film looks nothing like the real Lovelady.... different shaped heads and ears, for example.

I'd like to see that demonstrated.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Groden's version of Lovelady's left sleeve in Altgens 6 is clearer than any of the versions posted here, and the rectangular pattern is visible (see page 186; Groden claims that he made his copy from the original negative).

 

You can argue this with Andrej Stancak. Four posts up, he claimed that the resolutions of even the high-quality Altgens 6 photos is too low to even see the pattern. The implication being that the pattern we do see in some of the copies is a product of aliasing or some other such digital artifact.

I've looked at dozens of copies of Altgens 6 photos, and my experience is that the low quality copies are the ones with the plaid pattern whereas the high quality copies DON'T show the pattern. So I'm going to agree with Andrej on this one. If Groden's high-quality copy shows a pattern, I'll bet he was snookered.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

There are plenty of images of the crowd taken at around the time Altgens shows Lovelady on the steps. Do any of these home movies and photos show this Lovelady lookalike? If not, where was he?

 

You want to know where Plaid Shirt Man (the guy you think is Lovelady) was while the real Lovelady was standing on the TSBD steps?

I'll show you where:    (drum roll please....)

 

 

That's right folks.... Plaid Shirt Man  was across the street from Billy Lovelady when the motorcade passed.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Sandy:

it is irrelevant what shirt Lovelady showed to Robert Groden, he may have shown him a wrong shirt just like that. There is no way to demonstrate that the shirt wearing by Lovelady in Martin's film and in Altgens6 differed. Hence, you do not have a case which is what I wanted to hint to in my post.

Carl Jones wore a long-sleeved shirt of uniform beige colour, as seen in Willis photograph. If you were right and Altgens6 shows his arm instead of Lovelady, we would beed to see a transition between a uniform, light-coloured shape and Lovelady's shoulder or arm. But there is no such transition to be seen in Altgens6. Hence, you do not have a case.

As per Lovelady's forward head posture, this is evident in Martin's film. The comparatively forward head location in Lovelady's figure explains the V-shaped shadow on Lovelady's neck and upper chest. Had he a normal head posture, there would not be any V-shaped shadow on Lovelady. In my video, I systematically varied the position of Lovelady's head to be able to reproduce the V-shaped shadow as accurately as possible. Bending the trunk in waist to achieve the exact positioning of Lovelady's head in Altgens6 was not possible, only moving of his head forward relative to his chest did reproduce the V-shaped shadow. 

The top left image shows the uniform and light colour of Carl Jones's shirt contrasting the patterns and dark tone of Lovelady's shirt.

 

 

[Gil Jesus]

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, Gil Jesus said:

 

Gil,

You're making a case against Ralph Cinque. I am not Ralph Cinque.

Yes, the man in the doorway is Billy Lovelady.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

49 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Carl Jones wore a long-sleeved shirt of uniform beige colour, as seen in Willis photograph. If you were right and Altgens6 shows his arm instead of Lovelady, we would beed to see a transition between a uniform, light-coloured shape and Lovelady's shoulder or arm. But there is no such transition to be seen in Altgens6. Hence, you do not have a case.

 

Andrej,

If you zoom way in and look closely at Carl Jones's sleeve, you will see that it has been pushed back (up) several inches. Who knows how many inches it has fallen since he pushed his sleeves back.

 

 

In Altgens 6 his hand is raised and this will keep that sleeve from failing back in place after he has pulled them back. Therefore, what we are seeing in Altgens 6 are his bare arm and hand. Since they are dark, we should not expect to see the transition you spoke of.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

it is irrelevant what shirt Lovelady showed to Robert Groden, he may have shown him a wrong shirt just like that. There is no way to demonstrate that the shirt wearing by Lovelady in Martin's film and in Altgens6 differed.

 

Likewise, there is no way to demonstrate that the shirt worn in the two pictures are identical.

But what I CAN do is show that Plaid Shirt Man (the guy in the Martin film) and Billy Lovelady are two different people. I did just that in this post above.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, the man in the doorway is Billy Lovelady.

... and it is also the man photographed in Dallas police station and on steps in Martin film. Lovelady was not shaved well on that day in contrast to his appearance in the FBI photograph.

[Sandy Larsen]

22 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, the man in the doorway is Billy Lovelady.

... and it is also the man photographed in Dallas police station and on steps in Martin film.

 

I don't think so, Andrej.

 

[Sean Coleman]

At least this guy has a pocket 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Sean Coleman