Billy Lovelady is NOT leaning over (much) in Altgens 6.

[Paul Bacon]

2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Complete chin/jaw line should appear. 

Different ways of looking at the arm orientation.

Which one matches more closely with what is seen in Bell?

Credit to Jean Ceulemans (I believe), for the post activity TSBD photo.

 

I'm sorry Chris, I'm not following you...

[Chris Davidson]

Shadow contrast applied:

[Paul Bacon]

16 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

Complete chin/jaw line should appear. 

Different ways of looking at the arm orientation.

Which one matches more closely with what is seen in Bell?

Credit to Jean Ceulemans (I believe), for the post activity TSBD photo.

 

Chris, why is it that we don't see Lovelady's full jaw line and that tie-man's shirt appears to overlap his jaw?  Do you think the photo was manipulated?

[Tom Gram]

On 10/20/2023 at 6:24 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

You want to know where Plaid Shirt Man (the guy you think is Lovelady) was while the real Lovelady was standing on the TSBD steps?

I'll show you where:    (drum roll please....)

 

 

That's right folks.... Plaid Shirt Man  was across the street from Billy Lovelady when the motorcade passed.

 

Until you demonstrate persuasively that the guy in the Martin film and City Hall footage was not Billy Lovelady, the skepticism will continue. I’m no photo expert, but as far as I know, all of your comparison photos can be plausibly explained by quality issues, camera angles, lens types etc. Thus, your entire theory rests on this one image. 

I have to admit though, I’ve seen worse. Find another angle in color that at least shows this guy’s shirt was bright red and/or a better view of his face/hairline and you might have something resembling an actual case here. 

However, even on the off chance this photo shows the same guy in the Martin film, what’s more likely: 1) a deliberate conspiratorial impersonation by a hunchback doppelgänger; or 2) a random unidentified witness wearing a red plaid shirt who just happened to resemble Lovelady? 

We never get a direct view of the alleged doppelgänger’s face, but in the City Hall footage he turns for a second and his profile to me looks identical to Lovelady. Also, if this guy was just casually sitting there in City Hall and hanging around the TSBD steps, who the hell was he? Would a witting conspirator really just hang around and let himself be taped and photographed like that? 

Basically, I agree with Jeremy et al. that this thread is utter nonsense - but this low-quality, inconclusive photo of a guy with an apparently matching shirt and general appearance to the alleged hunchback does warrant a bit of effort to find other images of that area during the motorcade, IMO. 

[Chris Davidson]

8 hours ago, Paul Bacon said:

Chris, why is it that we don't see Lovelady's full jaw line and that tie-man's shirt appears to overlap his jaw? 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

16 hours ago, Paul Bacon said:

Chris, why is it that we don't see Lovelady's full jaw line and that tie-man's shirt appears to overlap his jaw?  Do you think the photo was manipulated?

Paul:

this analysis of Altgens6 doorway may be of interest to you. It addresses all details of Lovelady's figure, including his face.

https://youtu.be/C0Hwt-cIGq4

 

[Sandy Larsen]

10 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Thus, your entire theory rests on this one image. 

 

Tom,

Sorry, but you are just wrong. You don't even know what my theory is, or why or how it is I developed it. So what you say, you do so out of ignorance.

As I said earlier, the purpose of this thread was only to point out that Carl Jones's arm and hand are blocking the view of Lovelady's arm in Altgens 6. Unfortunately I had to introduce bits and pieces of my theory to explain the seeming plaid pattern on Jones's/Lovelady's arm in an Altgens 6 copy posted by DVP.

Since I've seen three different high-quality copies of Altgens 6 since then (one posted by DVP), none of which having the plaid pattern, it is my conclusion that the pattern is really an artifact of digitization and scanning, for example an aliasing effect. That was actually pointed out by Andrej in this thread and I agreed with him.

 

10 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

Basically, I agree with Jeremy et al. that this thread is utter nonsense - ....

 

Yes, this thread has turned into utter nonsense. But at this point it is the fault of the naysayers who ignore the times I've said that I haven't presented my theory and that I intend to do so at a later time on another thread.

 

10 hours ago, Tom Gram said:

.... but this low-quality, inconclusive photo of a guy with an apparently matching shirt and general appearance to the alleged hunchback does warrant a bit of effort to find other images of that area during the motorcade, IMO. 

 

I want to point out that the only reason I posted that B&W photo of Plaid Shirt Man standing on the south side of Elm Street is because Jeremy said he would like to see other photos of the guy in Martin wearing a plaid shirt. We can't be sure it's the same guy, but it sure looks like him.

 

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

 

 

Thanks Chris. It took me a while, but I finally figured out what the point of your gifs is. I'll explain it here for others who aren't getting it either.

If you look at Lovelady in Altgens 6, it isn't obvious where Lovelady's shoulder is. It seems to be covered by Tie Man's white shirt.

 

 

I said earlier that I thought that Lovelady is standing at a rotational angle (not to be confused with leaning) with his left shoulder back away from the camera and right shoulder toward the camera (though that one hidden by the wall). This along with the wide opening of his shirt diminishes his left shoulder.

I think that Chris's gifs demonstrate this well. Though he uses a photo of Oswald instead of Lovelady to do so. (Because there are lots of Oswald photos to choose from.)

Look at how Oswald's left shoulder (and left side) diminishes in width as he turns the corner.

 

 

Chris took one of those standing-at-an-angle frames and superimposed it on the Altgens 6 photo:

 

 

(One of the overlay flashes is Lovelady.... ignore that one for now.)

This animated gif nearly perfectly shows how it is that Lovelady's left shoulder appears to be missing.

Not only that, but this gif explains how it is that the corner of Tie Man's white shirt seems to be covering Lovelady's cheek. The fact is, I'm sure, that what we think is Lovelady's ear is really the face or blond hair of somebody standing behind Black Tie Man. That face or hair creates the illusion that Lovelady's face is facing the camera square on. But truth is, I'm sure, that Lovelady's head is turned a little to his left -- like Oswald's is -- and thus is hiding his ear and slenderizing his face and creating a gap where his cheek normally would be, thereby allowing Tie Man's white shirt to show through.

It's quite an optical illusion. It's easy to see why Ralph Cinque and his followers were fooled by it.

 

[Tom Gram]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I want to point out that the only reason I posted that B&W photo of Plaid Shirt Man standing on the south side of Elm Street is because Jeremy said he would like to see other photos of the guy in Martin wearing a plaid shirt. We can't be sure it's the same guy, but it sure looks like him.

I’m actually agreeing with you on this. It really does look like it could be the same guy, plaid shirt, hunchback and all, which is why I think it’d be a worthwhile effort to look through other photos/films of that spot in Dealey Plaza to try to get a better angle and/or confirmation of the shirt color. I’m admittedly very skeptical, and think that even on the off chance it’s the same guy it’d be just a random witness as opposed to anything else, but it’s at least worth a closer look, IMO. 

Also, you are correct: I don’t know what your theory actually is. You did say you would share that in another thread, so my apologies. I phrased that wrong. I just meant the notion that Lovelady and the guy in Martin film and City Hall footage are two different people. Everything else I’ve seen so far has a plausible explanation, like the the profile shots, etc. - but if you can demonstrate that this alleged Plaid Shirt Guy was really standing across Elm St. during the motorcade, that’s a different story.

Extraordinary claims etc. etc.…My point is that this is a radical claim, and you’ll need more than just a few blurry comparison photos to convince anyone of anything, myself included. However, even though it is just another blurry photo, this image actually has potential. You might be able to find another shot of this guy; and just confirming the shirt color would help your case a heck of a lot more than any allegations about Altgens 6, IMO. 

I guess this is an attempt at cautious encouragement, if that makes sense. Find another photo of this guy across the street, and if it checks out I’ll be the first to admit that you might be onto something here. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Tom Gram

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks Chris. It took me a while, but I finally figured out what the point of your gifs is. I'll explain it here for others who aren't getting it either.

If you look at Lovelady in Altgens 6, it isn't obvious where Lovelady's shoulder is. It seems to be covered by Tie Man's white shirt.

 

 

I said earlier that I thought that Lovelady is standing at a rotational angle (not to be confused with leaning) with his left shoulder back away from the camera and right shoulder toward the camera (though that one hidden by the wall). This along with the wide opening of his shirt diminishes his left shoulder.

I think that Chris's gifs demonstrate this well. Though he uses a photo of Oswald instead of Lovelady to do so. (Because there are lots of Oswald photos to choose from.)

Look at how Oswald's left shoulder (and left side) diminishes in width as he turns the corner.

 

 

Chris took one of those standing-at-an-angle frames and superimposed it on the Altgens 6 photo:

 

 

(One of the overlay flashes is Lovelady.... ignore that one for now.)

This animated gif nearly perfectly shows how it is that Lovelady's left shoulder appears to be missing.

Not only that, but this gif explains how it is that the corner of Tie Man's white shirt seems to be covering Lovelady's cheek. The fact is, I'm sure, that what we think is Lovelady's ear is really the face or blond hair of somebody standing behind Black Tie Man. That face or hair creates the illusion that Lovelady's face is facing the camera square on. But truth is, I'm sure, that Lovelady's head is turned a little to his left -- like Oswald's is -- and thus is hiding his ear and slenderizing his face and creating a gap where his cheek normally would be, thereby allowing Tie Man's white shirt to show through.

It's quite an optical illusion. It's easy to see why Ralph Cinque and his followers were fooled by it.

 

 

It just occurred to me that Chris's demonstration with animated gifs supports my assertion that, what appears to many to be Lovelady's left arm and hand in Altgens 6, is actually Carl Jones's arm and hand.

With Lovelady standing at an angle to the camera, as Chris demonstrates, his arm would be substantially diminished in width, just the way his shoulder is. And his arm certainly wouldn't reach as far down as to touch the image of Carl Jones's chest.

 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Tom Gram said:

However, even though it is just another blurry photo, this image actually has potential.

 

Thank you for your apology.

That photo of Plaid Shirt Man on the south side of Elm Street is actually unnecessary for my theory. But I'm glad you could see the hunchback in it. I see it as well. I think the photo would be of great corroborative value if most people could see the hunchback, and be honest enough to admit so.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Here is an overhead view of Lovelady in the doorway in Altgens6 scene, and below an overlay of the same scene onto Altgens6.

Lovelady's posture was not that dramatic as some people may assume by viewing Altgens6 without the advantage of seeing a model of the scene. The foreshortening effect of Altgens's camera lens created a lot of unusual perceptions.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Andrej Stancak

[Sandy Larsen]

27 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Here is an overhead view of Lovelady in the doorway in Altgens6 scene, and below an overlay of the same scene onto Altgens6.

Lovelady's posture was not that dramatic as some people may assume by viewing Altgens6 without the advantage of seeing a model of the scene. The foreshortening effect of Altgens's camera lens created a lot of unusual perceptions.

 

 

 

 

 

Andrej,

Please show us a view from the front of the entrance, with nobody or anything blocking our view of Lovelady.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

 

Andrej,

Where is Lovelady's hand?

BTW, I noticed that you had to widen the blackness of Tie Man's suit coat next to Lovelady's collar-line, in order to draw in (with red) Lovelady's shoulder. That's not fair IMO.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Andrej,

Please show us a view from the front of the entrance, with nobody or anything blocking our view of Lovelady.

 

Do you mean "front" from Altgens perspective or from the front to the doorway? Which figure should be hidden?