Rifle disassembly question

[Miles Massicotte]

This is a picture of CE 139. I don't know anything about rifles; does anyone know if it is possible to remove/disassemble this whole unit (not the scope but the actual bolt action and etc. where the round is fed in) from the wooded stock? And if so, how involved is that? Thanks in advance. 

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305134?objectPage=4

[George Govus]

Miles, the time and effort involved to assemble and dis-assemble the rifle has been discussed on this forum recently, it is no simple thing. I just did a search for this discussion using the forum search engine and also Duck Duck Go, but I did not find what I recall reading. What I remember is a researcher made it his thing to practice the assembly using a dime coin. A dime coin, because it is alleged that is all Oswald might have had, in order to accomplish the feat. The researcher tried and tried, and had to take several minutes to do it, and wound up with abrasions on his hand. I don't recall hearing Oswald had those.

thefirearmblog.com posted a picture of the disassembled rifle, answers your other question.

 

[Sean Coleman]

The removal of the bolt action assembly (inc. firing pin) is quick & easy - open it as if loading a bullet, hold the trigger and it slides out backwards as a complete unit, leaving the barrel and trigger/guard attached to the stock.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

I think the key point is how difficult is it to detach the wooden stock from the rest of the rifle. You can leave the rest of the rifle assembled----this assumes LHO was bringing the partly unassembled rifle into the TSBD. 

However, even the wooden stock is likely too long an object to be inside the bag LHO was observed carrying on 11/22. 

The dubious paper bag found in the TSBD is longer than the length of the assembled rifle. This suggests the assembled rifle was brought into the TSBD. Unobserved. 

My guess is the rifle was brought into the TSBD before 11/22, possibly at night. But who knows? 

[Sean Coleman]

To breakdown for concealment-

One must remove the bolt, then one screw on the barrel clamp holds the barrel in place on the stock. Sounds easy, but there’s a good deal of fiddling with small components involved. Not the job you’d want to do under pressure.

See GG’s pic abov, the clamp is the roundish item at the end of the stock.

[Benjamin Cole]

2 minutes ago, Sean Coleman said:

To breakdown for concealment-

One must remove the bolt, then one screw on the barrel clamp holds the barrel in place on the stock. Sounds easy, but there’s a good deal of fiddling with small components involved. Not the job you’d want to do under pressure.

See GG’s pic abov, the clamp is the roundish item at the end of the stock.

The "pressure" would be to re-assemble the partially unassembled rifle quickly, unobserved. 

I wonder if anyone has ever tested that out.  

As I say, my guess is the whole rifle was brought into the TSBD in a night job. 

[Pete Mellor]

11 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

The "pressure" would be to re-assemble the partially unassembled rifle quickly, unobserved. 

I wonder if anyone has ever tested that out.  

B.C. You betcha! Tested out thirty years back in 1994 when D.P.U.K., was known as 'Dallas '63'.  Check out this thorough report by ex-Metropolitan police detective, the late Ian Griggs.  We bin there, done that.

"S the MANNLICHER CARCANO --A PRACTICAL EXPERIMENT in ITS REASSEMBLY - DocsLib

[Benjamin Cole]

16 minutes ago, Pete Mellor said:

B.C. You betcha! Tested out thirty years back in 1994 when D.P.U.K., was known as 'Dallas '63'.  Check out this thorough report by ex-Metropolitan police detective, the late Ian Griggs.  We bin there, done that.

"S the MANNLICHER CARCANO --A PRACTICAL EXPERIMENT in ITS REASSEMBLY - DocsLib

Excellent. 

Ian Griggs says that, with a screwdriver, LHO could have re-assembled the M-C rifle in a little more than 2 minutes. Not really possible with a dime. 

But the stock is more than 34" long anyway. A 34-inch stock in a paper bag on the morning of 11/22? With all those metal parts clanging about (as mentioned by Griggs). 

My guess is the rifle was brought into the TSBD at night. 

The Warren Commission never even broaches the idea of a night delivery...why? Who helped LHO? Was he driven there? No nighttime guard saw him? No reports of a break-in? 

Maybe the same guys who gave LHO a lift to the Walker shooting? 

 

 

 

with a screwdriver

[Jean Ceulemans]

The way I understood it, when you disconnect the barrel (basically 2 bolts, see red lines) one also disconnect the small part(s) that connect the firing-pin-release to the trigger-assembly below.  That connection is a hassle as both are connected to springs (directly/indirectly).

Taking it apart is no big deal, putting it back together is a totally different ball-game (as a kid most of us probably took apart a lot of stuff, at least I was, putting it back together however....).

I guess one would really need to practice it a lot to do it smoothly, just like they do in the military for cleaning a rifle, practice, practice, practice,.... in Mrs. Paine garage ??? Nope, don't think so...

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Jean Ceulemans

[Pete Mellor]

13 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

34-inch stock in a paper bag on the morning of 11/22? With all those metal parts clanging about (as mentioned by Griggs). 

Oh man, what is more ridiculous is the fact that the paper bag was constructed from the TSBD paper machine!  So, do we have another ridiculous scenario of LHO having this crinkly paper stuffed up his shirt on the Thursday evening ride with Frazier back to Irving?!?  + his origami skills in the Paine's garage that night. 

Your Carcano night delivery certainly makes more sense than the W.C. fairy tales.  Of course Warren & Co., never broached that idea.  That would have proved a conspiracy. 

[Chris Scally]

Pete:

I remember Ian Griggs disassembling his Carcano rifle at a DPUK Conference in Canterbury some years ago. I wonder if anyone (perhaps Stuart?) filmed that presentation, or any other occasion on which Ian did his demonstration?

 

[Miles Massicotte]

Thank you everyone for the detailed responses, I do deeply appreciate it. Sometimes this subject is a bit tricky for me because I don't know the right rifle terminology, so it is hard to find the right places to look, but this answered all my questions. Kindest regards to all

2 hours ago, George Govus said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Sean Coleman said:

 

 

2 hours ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Pete Mellor said:

 

 

54 minutes ago, Jean Ceulemans said:

 

 

2 minutes ago, Chris Scally said:

 

 

[Benjamin Cole]

My understanding is that the mysterious paper sack found on 6th floor was made of a different kind of paper than the packing paper used inside the TBSD. 

Like everything about the JFKA...somehow the jigsaw pieces just don't quite fit right. 

 

 

[Pete Mellor]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:14 PM, Chris Scally said:

Pete:

I remember Ian Griggs disassembling his Carcano rifle at a DPUK Conference in Canterbury some years ago. I wonder if anyone (perhaps Stuart?) filmed that presentation, or any other occasion on which Ian did his demonstration?

 

Indeed, I recall a couple of occasions when a Carcano appeared at Canterbury.  Although one year I think Peter Antill brought one.  Unfortunately the D.P.U.K. website doesn't show any vids for the years Ian was in attendance there.

[Pete Mellor]

On 10/26/2023 at 1:22 PM, Benjamin Cole said:

My understanding is that the mysterious paper sack found on 6th floor was made of a different kind of paper than the packing paper used inside the TBSD. 

Oh no, not more information/disinformation.  Clearly I've read in various books that the paper used was the same as the packing paper.  Not wishing to hijack this rifle thread, but can Forum members clarify this?