Which WC critics believe Mexico City shenanigans were used by CIA plotters to place blame on Cuba/Russia?

[Sandy Larsen]

Which WC critics believe Mexico City shenanigans were used by CIA plotters to place blame on Cuba/Russia?

(I'm talking about Mexico City theories that take into account the statements of Gilberto Alvarado, Elena Garro, and June Cobb.)

I'm particularly interested in the authors of books and other prominent members of the WC critics community.

But I'm also interested in knowing which forum members believe the same.

I'll start off by saying that that is what I believe.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

List of Believers

• Jim DiEugenio  (Destiny Betrayed)
• Peter Dale Scott  (Phase 1, Phase 2)
• Sandy Larsen
• Cliff Varnell
• Gene Kelly

 

[James DiEugenio]

Since I have written a lot about this in two books, I would have to say I agree.

BTW, we did have a section on Mexico City in Stone's documentary.  And we had three really good people talking about it, Hardway, Lopez and Lisa Pease. It got excised.  And it was not my idea.

[Cliff Varnell]

There’s doubt?

[Sandy Larsen]

25 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Since I have written a lot about this in two books, I would have to say I agree.

BTW, we did have a section on Mexico City in Stone's documentary.  And we had three really good people talking about it, Hardway, Lopez and Lisa Pease. It got excised.  And it was not my idea.

 

Jim,

I read Destiny Betrayed a long time ago. I recall that it hinted a lot about the Mexico City trip being a CIA con job. But it seems like the book left it up to the reader to decide if the CIA was using it to blame the Cubans and Russians.

I could very well be wrong about that, given how long it's been since I read the book. Another possibility is this... when I joined the forum and found I could check sources myself and draw my own conclusions, I decided to remove from my thoughts the conclusions made by authors of books I'd read, and start from scratch. I wanted to form my own, independent conclusions.  Which I've done.

What I've discovered is that the books I read DO align pretty closely with what I now believe. The recommendations I got for choosing those books served me well.

BTW, it's a shame that the Mexico City stuff got removed.

The Mexico City mischief is the heart of the plot IMO. I mean, other than the fact that Kennedy's foreign policy countered the ideology of the generals' and others around him, for which he was eliminated. Blaming the Cubans/Russians for the assassination just served to get more bang for the buck. Or, as some believe, served to trigger the government coverup.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

There’s doubt?

 

Well, I've noticed that I'm virtually the only one who ever talks about it. And I've noticed that other members who believe the CIA is behind the assassination also believe things that are inconsistent with the "faked Cuba/Russia did it" theory.

Like Roger Odisio, who thinks that part of the plot was to make the government decide right away that Oswald assassinated Kennedy himself. I asked Roger why the CIA plotters would put so much effort into making it look like the Cubans and Russians were to blame, only to snuff out that thought immediately after the assassination. He didn't see any problem in that. To me it means that Roger doesn't believe what I do.

 

[Benjamin Cole]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Well, I've noticed that I'm virtually the only one who ever talks about it. And I've noticed that other members who believe the CIA is behind the assassination also believe things that are inconsistent with the "faked Cuba/Russia did it" theory.

Like Roger Odisio, who thinks that part of the plot was to make the government decide right away that Oswald assassinated Kennedy himself. I asked Roger why the CIA plotters would put so much effort into making it look like the Cubans and Russians were to blame, only to snuff out that thought immediately after the assassination. He didn't see any problem in that. To me it means that Roger doesn't believe what I do.

 

I think the CIA arranged the Mexico City meeting between LHO and Kostikov, and the real LHO was there.  

I wonder how many other wayward American tourists visited the closed Soviet embassy on a Saturday in 1963, and then were received by not one, but three KGB agents?

I suspect (without proof) the CIA intentionally "leaked" info to the KGB that LHO was a CIA asset. Intrigued, Kostikov dropped everything and met with LHO, as Kostikov was professionally obligated to do. 

The purpose of the meeting was to establish LHO as a commie sympathizer or asset. Part of the LHO biography build.

I suspect a false flag op was planned at that time (Sept. 1963), to be blamed on Castro.  Was the JFKA planned? Who knows? 

I suspect LHO was inveigled into the false flag op. 

It would be nice to get the JFK Records and track down the connection between Joannides and LHO. 

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Cliff Varnell said:

There’s doubt?

 

It seems so. After 68 views I have only two members responding!

Thanks for your response, BTW.  To @James DiEugenio too.

[Charles Blackmon]

Yes Sandy I believe the Mexico City episode was an attempt to portray Oswald as a Commie. I don't know if it was the real Oswald but there are no photos of the real Oswald at the embassy.  

[Sandy Larsen]

4 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

 

 

Thanks for your response too, Ben.

I don't count your theory among ours because it ignores Alvarado's and Garro's statements.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Yes Sandy I believe the Mexico City episode was an attempt to portray Oswald as a Commie. I don't know if it was the real Oswald but there are no photos of the real Oswald at the embassy.  

 

Thanks Charles. But are you aware of the stories that make it appear Oswald was in cahoots with the Cubans and Russians? (e.g. Kostikov/Kostin; the twist party; the $6500 down payment?)

 

[Charles Blackmon]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks Charles. But are you aware of the stories that make it appear Oswald was in cahoots with the Cubans and Russians? (e.g. Kostikov/Kostin; the twist party; the $6500 down payment?)

 

Yes I have heard of the latter two you mention but am not aware that any of those stories were ever substantiated. I did see the interview with the former KGB guy on a documentary. Not sure what to make of that story.

[Benjamin Cole]

15 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Yes Sandy I believe the Mexico City episode was an attempt to portray Oswald as a Commie. I don't know if it was the real Oswald but there are no photos of the real Oswald at the embassy.  

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/oswald/

About 1:10 mark. This is a PBS production. 

The three KGB officers state, on the record and filmed, that they met the "real" LHO in Mexico City at their embassy in Sept. 1963. 

That seems conclusive. I suppose all three could be lying, but to what end? A much more sensational and anti-US story would be to say they met a fake LHO. 

I am aware of the Alvarado and Garro statements. I am not sure what Sandy Larsen means in regards to this. 

[Sandy Larsen]

5 minutes ago, Benjamin Cole said:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/documentary/oswald/

About 1:10 mark. This is a PBS production. 

The three KGB officers state, on the record and filmed, that they met the "real" LHO in Mexico City at their embassy in Sept. 1963. 

That seems conclusive. I suppose all three could be lying, but to what end? A much more sensational and anti-US story would be to say they met a fake LHO. 

I am aware of the Alvarado and Garro statements. I am not sure what Sandy Larsen means in regards to this. 

 

Ben,

Please don't discuss your theory on this thread. This thread is about the theory that takes into account the Alvarado, Garro, and Cobb statements.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 minutes ago, Charles Blackmon said:

Yes I have heard of the latter two you mention but am not aware that any of those stories were ever substantiated. I did see the interview with the former KGB guy on a documentary. Not sure what to make of that story.

 

Charles,

The Alvarado and Garro statements (about Oswald fraternizing with people from the Cuban Consulate and collecting $6500 inside the consulate) are fake stories, obviously planted by the CIA. The story about Oswald meeting with KGB assassination chief Kostikov is also fake in the opinions of most serious JFKA researchers.

Ben believes the bit about Kostikov because he appeared on a TV program saying that he indeed did meet with Oswald. But serious researchers don't believe him. Jim DiEugenio says that he likely lied about Oswald for money. (I think the TV program was made not long after the Soviet Union collapsed.) I think the Jim D.  is right.

There's a growing number of us who believe Oswald was never even in Mexico City, and that the whole thing was fabricated. With the exception of the blond Oswald impersonator, who did enter the Cuban Consulate and made a scene there. (So he would be remembered?) Researcher David  Josephs has demonstrated that the bus trips to and from MC were faked.